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I want to say Saganbo. I don't think he was counted when they said Yuzun was undefeatable.

Doubt it. He got Goku off-guard there.

Saganbo powered by Moro was a fucking beast. PSSB Goku was not going easy on him. It's definitely possible he would have stomped SSG Goku.

Look, you can think Jiren is the strongest now if you want, but since he hasn't been seen since the tournament, you have no proof of this. It's inadmissible as evidence and just speculation on your part. What the story we have been given actually says is that Beerus, Goku, Vegeta, Granolah are...

I'm still not understanding what this has to do with Jiren being on the same level as Beerus. Even Toyotaro said Beerus is still stronger than Goku while Goku is one of the top 3 strongest mortals in universe 7 (with Granolah and Vegeta). I never said Hit wasn't on the same level as Goku. But...

What was it? "u trash"?

ToP PSSB Goku is nowhere near God of Destruction level. That was obvious when he couldn't even budge a casual Jiren. I don't see what this has to do with Jiren. It took a lot of training after the ToP for Goku and Vegeta to pass God of Destruction level, and they're still trash to Beerus. Hit...

Because Jiren is stronger than Belmod. That doesn't mean he's stronger than every single God of Destruction. Belmod is simply one of the weaker gods and Beerus is probably tied for strongest. I'm not saying Hit isn't on par with Golden Freeza, but he's not stronger like you're saying. He didn't...

The story says Goku and Vegeta would stomp Jiren, and Beerus would stomp them, so logically Beerus would stomp Jiren. Whis is not an idiot. Time Lag is a special technique. That's like saying Goku is stronger than someone because he used the Kamehameha. Nothing about what Hit did in his...

Jiren is factually not stronger than Moro, Broly, and Granolah. Broly was stated to be stronger than Jiren. Whis already stated post-Yardrat Vegeta was stronger than Broly. Granolah became stronger than post-Yardrat Vegeta and post-Merus Goku. Jiren is nowhere near the top, regardless if he's...

Freeza wouldn't know that.

Turrble logic.

I actually see a bit of a problem now. Freeza trained and got a lot stronger, we know that. It was stated he was strong enough to stagger SSJ Broly and even make Broly dodge some of his hits. So the two really couldn't be too far apart even with Freeza's durability as a factor. But then why...

You act like mofukkin Krillin just stopped training after the potential unlock.

Yeah, I'm still sticking with that. I didn't see anything that would contradict it, and it would even help the argument for why the Saiyans didn't bother with SSBE/Kaioken Blue or UI.

I don't see why he can't be in the middle. Yamcha slacked while Krillin kept a hefty lead.

Maybe. The novelization doesn't describe any power-up here, only that they're fighting nearly evenly though Gogeta isn't worried at all.

So there's still no real evidence that ToP Goku was some kind of benchmark during the Moro fight?

I don't think Vegeta can compete at all.

Krillin's training didn't make much of a difference against Yunba, despite having 18 to train with, so if he didn't make much progress then Tenshinhan and Yamcha certainly didn't since they're still below him. The only ones that made insane progress were Gohan, Piccolo, and the androids, which...