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For the way he was introduced in the 22nd Budokai, with Kame-Sennin noticing his potential by learning the KMHMH quickly (which funnily enough was noticed as a shock when Goku saw Boo doing that) and his rivalry with Goku then... Do you think his follow up was kinda meh and could be done more...

Yeah, I agree there were very glarring structural similarities between the Boo and Cell arcs, also in how the stakes were raised with new adversaries, though that being a common element in many arcs of the series. The main distinction I feel lies more in the characters of Boo and Cell. Cell is...

I'd say that despite his initial lack of motivation to fight after the Cell Games, Vegeta's drive was reignited by Gohan's remarkable strength. Gohan, significantly more powerful than Vegeta at that point, imo served as an unintentional benchmark for Vegeta's own aspirations. Even before Goku...

Bardock being 10,000 was given in the special, right? But the comparison of him and King Vegeta wasn't made in the original Japanese special, right? I remember that when I watched it with Brazilian dubs (which are a lot more faithful than Funimation's, a lot more), one of the workers, doctors...

I agree with SSJ2. Goku could at least get some hits on Cell. As far as we were shown, even with Cell trying to kill Gohan as soon as possible, he didn't get a hit on. Cell was also attacking Goku when out speeding him, which made things even tougher for Goku... Still he managed to recover from...

Nah that's a good list. I don't have any disagreements.

I think rivalry in storytelling is more than the two reciprocating the feeling. I think even when the obsession is one sided, the fact Goku pushes Vegeta to be better and the acknowledgement Goku gives Vegeta is rivalry in story telling even if not in the traditional sense of the word.

Well yeah but it's not like Goku has Vegeta in his mind. He just wants to strive to be the best possible, while Vegeta is always focusing his gaze on Goku. I think Goku barely mentioned Vegeta as a potential enemy and having to surpass, be aware of post the Freeza arc. He respects Vegeta but he...

Now that I looked into my manga again, there doesn't seem to be a statement from Goku indicating Gohan unleashed his true power when they were training in the RoSaT... Weird as I've read the manga for a while and haven't watched the anime in years. Maybe that scene of Gohan transforming in the...

Or is that misplaced? Elder Kai said that but he hadn't much basis for that beyond their dialogue. I mean, Goku isn't obsessed in surpassing Vegeta... He doesn't see Vegeta as a benchmark mostly. While Vegeta does, generally. So it'd be more one sided. Or maybe it's still rivalry but in a...

Fake chi = suppression. Goku was suppressed when he was read as 5,000.....

In the manga Cell states the level he initially used vs Vegeta who was read by 16 as < Vegeta was his warm up. DBZ Chapter 189 Context : Perfect Cell and Vegeta are about to clash, after Kuririn is almost killed by a kick Cell : Would you help me warm up? They clash for a while Android 16 ...

Curse us to spend our times home on DBZ, this DBZ curse is real I tell ya. Today is the last day with DBZ stuff tho, as of today when I wake up I'll take a hiatus on this whole debating DBZ thing since it's bad to spend my entire free time doing that basically. Gotta read many other things...

That's what happens when I'm on vacation from work and college and have lots of ample time :troll Though I will go out to the theaters tomorrow since a friend of mine called me earlier and I can't give a no to her lulz tho the movie seems kinda lame but who knows

I mean, the thought that Goku might have something up is still on them. Trunks says "at this rate" but I don't think it implies it'll be a gradual thing... Just that the battle is turning to a point that Goku can't win. Vegeta stated he'll definitely lose... The fact Cell tells him to eat a...

He wasn't said or seen as the strongest. He's stronger overall ofc, but I see no suggestion that weakened Goku was stronger. Vegeta thought the Senzu Bean was an atrocity because of their pride... That Goku wouldn't want to win that way. There was no comparison made with exhausted Goku.

Some panels that might add to my point. Goku was extra exterting himself (Roshi said that to him, Goku knows he'll lose) so he tried everything in an ultimate effort to leave somewhat of a mark, like a no consequences attack knowing it will be his last effort. Then Vegeta said Goku will...

I think considering the nature of the effort and intensity of the chi blasts, with Goku spamming it so much with no thought, forcing Cell to even put up a barrier, that such was like Goku's last effort in dishing out powerful blasts as his last attempt in the fight. He knew he couldn't win...

I think Trunks is being cautious... Like, even though Cell may be behind Goku, ganging up on him allows any chance Cell may have of getting away. Or he thinks Cell has more power in reserve. Like, if he senses Cell as considerably below 100% MSSJ Goku and sees Cell encouraging Goku to get a...

It depends on what you call way above. 1.2x/1.25x can be way above for some... Or for some, better described as a noticeable, considerable difference, but not in a too much above range. Since I factor in a boost on top of the already common one for SSJ2 in the CGs, I think the gap between teen...