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I think he's like saying the speed increase came already from the first time Freeza dodged Vegeta and later on Vegeta couldn't keep up because Freeza used a Zanzoken.

He was using the 24k level all along. It's just that deflecting the level needs more effort being applied. I don't see that as Vegeta using 23k and then 24k like I think you implied if you think the scenario applies to Freeza. It's just that Freeza needs 3,000,000 to dodge Vegeta swifly but...

Like Vegeta swiflling dodging Zarbon's kicks but needing effort to punch away his blast.

Little bit in a sense that Freeza is so powerful that even a big increase is nothing to him. In the other case, it was a strength demonstration against a steonger attack. It needed more effort because it was a powerful blast, that doesn't mean the power was above the speed level... Only that...

Piccolo 2,250 Kikoho 2,500 Masenko 2,800 Maybe too tight because Piccolo wondered whether Nappa was immortal after receiving the Kikoho. But that would force Piccolo too way down. Piccolo 2,000 Kikoho 2,400 Masenko 2,800 I can't go any lower than that with Piccolo. I think it can be argued...

I don't think so. Freeza brought the speed level he had before to a strength level on par with that. He initially increased his speed and then his power.

I like to think of Freeza underestimating Goku and using the level he was using pre fighting Vegeta before. Then when Vegeta stated for Freeza to be serious after the death beams, being basically using the level Freeza used to kick his ass. So I think vs Goku, Freeza was at the level he used...

Freeza going from 1,850,000 to 2,530,000 is a big power up. The emphasis may be based on the already gigantic power becoming even bigger by a considerable margin. Nappa performed a 2x power increase vs Goku and was treated in a not so blatant way... Vegeta going from kicking Goku outta the...

The way Goku dealt with Panpoot made Tenshinhan think of the tournament as a more worthwhile thing... Just like how Goku could access Ten was really good based on his fast hits vs that random preliminaries fighter, they had a good eye for each other. The display vs Panpoot only made the idea not...

Plus, Ten wasn't watching the fight. He was getting everything informed by Kaio. So the point about Ten knowing or not is moot.

Well P, you are just not consistent then since now you are arguing Goku never showed a Kaioken aura at any moment. So this tells me you are not following the red aura depiction of the colored manga, so you have nothing to stand on Goku not using Kaioken before. All Ten highlights is the Kaioken...

There's no reason not to have a Kaioken aura when being hit as it also increases one's defenses. We saw in the Vegeta fight he didn't lose it immediately upon being hit. So it seems AT just didn't make a point to show it always . He made a point by illustrating it in the attack moment firstly...

He had an aura here when Freeza kicked him... So it clearly didn't disappear everytime he was hit. He didn't show a Kaioken aura when protecting himself from Freeza's strongest attack shown until then... And Kaioken increases his defenses too. Point being: AT just didn't care to illustrate...

Goku didn't use a Kaioken aura here when kicking Freeza... Nor here Nor here. He has shown it for attacking and running away. And it wasn't always consistent when attacking. Vs no hands Freeza, there're three panels of him using the aura. I've already read the Vegeta fight plenty of times...

Show an instance of Goku having white eyes and a fierce aura besides that one that's not Kaioken. There was no emotion there, he was charging at Freeza. You need to show white eyes and fierce aura when Goku is charging at someone and a flight aura is confirmed as the case.

No, Goku's aura disappears plenty of times when he's fighting 50% Freeza. He has shown a Kaioken aura there for like, 2 or 3 panels.

The other time I see Goku using white eyes is when he's in pain, distress, agony, or using a Kiai with his eyes. Outside of it, when charging at someone, white eyes seem like a Kaioken thing. Prove otherwise.

Freeza's eyes are already kinda white lol tf bro

When does Freeza show it?

When Goku used it vs Freeza, he had that rough aura which he hadn't shown in his base state before and white-ish eyes which were already used to illustrate the Kaioken Seems pretty much a Kaioken aura, with the intensity, white-ish eyes, which matches the first time he used it: Fierce and...