23rd Budokai Tenshinhan

[Diamond Ryan]

Something interesting I've noted in the Tenshinhan vs. Goku fight.

Chapter: 177, P7.5-6, P8.1-2
Goku: “You’re a lot faster than before…! You’ve been suppressing your speed up until now.”
Tenshinhan: “You’ve figured it out. So just like I thought, your speed alone hasn’t changed. Son, I’m sorry but I’m going to win this contest! You can follow me with your eyes, but your actual body can’t keep up! This is a critical weakness!”
Goku: “I knew you were amazing! I didn’t think you’d get this fast!”

Tenshinhan states with confidence that he is going to win the Budokai, despite the fact that he had already witnessed Piccolo Jr. and Shen defeat Kuririn and Yamcha with ease. Any thoughts on this?

 

[ahill1]

Yeah I always thought Tenshinhan was at least slightly ahead of Shen (suppressed vs Yamcha) and Piccolo (vs Kuririn) based on this. It's not until the Piccolo vs Shen fight that Tenshinhan admits utter inferiority compared to these two.

So, basically, Tenshinhan could easily defeat Kuririn and Yamcha, maybe even both at the same time.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Yeah I always thought Tenshinhan was at least slightly ahead of Shen (suppressed vs Yamcha) and Piccolo (vs Kuririn) based on this. It's not until the Piccolo vs Shen fight that Tenshinhan admits utter inferiority compared to these two.

So, basically, Tenshinhan could easily defeat Kuririn and Yamcha, maybe even both at the same time.

Where would you place Kuririn and Yamcha in comparison to Piccolo Daimao?

 

[Papasmurf]

He's fast enough that neither of them can see his movements, so probably.

His gains have to have slowed down by the Saiyan arc though for him to tread such a path of irrelevance afterwards however

 

[Goku9001]

Makes me wonder what AT was thinking when he established the battle powers made at the beginning of Dragonball Z.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

He's fast enough that neither of them can see his movements, so probably.

His gains have to have slowed down by the Saiyan arc though for him to tread such a path of irrelevance afterwards however

I thought that he was stronger than SSj3 Goku in the Boo Saga?

 

[Papasmurf]

Nah, Galu is maximum.

 

[ahill1]

Where would you place Kuririn and Yamcha in comparison to Piccolo Daimao?

I'd like to have them even stronger than young Piccolo Daimao based on some good implications (as Kami implying Yamcha would "soon" catch up to him [not sure if he used the word soon] and Piccolo Junior stating World Conquest will be harder than he thought after the Kuririn fight). Though Kuririn's and Yamcha's reactions towards weighted Goku's speed let it really hard to put them above young Piccolo... so at the same level, though a bit weaker I'd say (since I don't think they'd react that way had the speed been = to theirs).

In the quote you posted, Goku said Tenshinhan was a lot faster than before (= weighted Goku), so this shows us Tenshinhan's true speed >>> Goku's weighted speed = Goku's speed (vs young Piccolo). There's also this quote:

Chapter: 177, P1.2-4, P2.1
Tenshinhan: “Son, you are truly incredible. 3 years ago, your strength was all but perfect. I’m amazed that you’ve managed to go so far above even that. However, there’s one thing that you haven’t changed that much from 3 years ago. And that’s something especially important in battle…speed!”


which shows Goku's weighted powers >>> Goku's powers (3 years ago). Tenshinhan was matching this power, showing he was >>> young Piccolo in power as well. So Tenshinhan was without a doubt a lot stronger and a lot faster than young Piccolo and post sacred/God/Miraculous water Goku.

I know you didn't ask me about my Tenshinhan's placement, but felt like talking about it haha.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

@ahill1 I agree with your placements. I would also like to have Kuririn and Yamcha above Piccolo Daimao, but it isn't really possible for the reasons you mentioned. I think they could still a muster a win through their techniques perhaps, but it'd be very close.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Makes me wonder what AT was thinking when he established the battle powers made at the beginning of Dragonball Z.

The same thing he was thinking at Super.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

to be fair "contest" doesn't have to mean the entire budokai

 

[Animelover5487]

to be fair "contest" doesn't have to mean the entire budokai

This. I find it a bit of a stretch, and out of context to interpret that statement as Ten talking about the whole tournament.

But, yeah Kami and Piccolo were holding back immensely so I have no qualms with Tenshinhan and Weighted Goku > Quarter Finals Shen/Piccolo Jr.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Do you think AT had in mind the 23rd gaps when making the humans' BOZ levels? Then, we can give Krillin/Tien a 1.25x gap.

 

[Animelover5487]

The problem with that is the gap is about as large as Krillin and Yamcha, despite them being rivals during the 23rd.

 

[Tapion]

I know it's off topic, but it's so sad the humans went downhill after the 23rd Budoukai.

I would really like it if the combined might of the Z Fighters were capable of having an actual hand to hand fight with Full-Power Nappa, instead of being easily bounced back once he did his very first power up. Then, when Goku appeared, he finished Nappa off. After that, everyone gave their energy to Goku temporarily to help him fight Vegeta. It would be awesome imho.

Also if Tien and Yamcha learned to use the Kaioken and went to Namek with Gohan and Bulma. It would be freaking awesome to see Tien fighting and actually managing to kill Zarbon, or Krillin, Gohan and Vegeta teaming up and defeating Recoome before Goku stepped in and killed Burter.

TL;DR: more relevant and badass humans would make the franchise better.

ON TOPIC: In my opinion, Tenshinhan would actually defeat both Krillin and Yamcha handily. I have a nice gap between them.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

The problem with that is the gap is about as large as Krillin and Yamcha, despite them being rivals during the 23rd.

Nothing indicates they're rivals at 23rd TB.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

The problem with that is the gap is about as large as Krillin and Yamcha, despite them being rivals during the 23rd.

Nothing indicates they're rivals at 23rd TB.

Status quo would indicate they are rivals. Plus, they both have similar fights. (They get defeated easily by Shen/Piccolo Jr., but they manage to impress them.)

 

[xmysticgohanx]

The only similarity is that Mihawk can off them both

 

[sei'taer]

Kuririn is always shown in a superior light to yamcha.

His showing vs piccolo compared to yamcha's vs shen is no different. Kuririn puts up a good fight against piccolo, where other than the spirit ball yamcha gets embarrassed by kami in a human body.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Kuririn is always shown in a superior light to yamcha.

His showing vs piccolo compared to yamcha's vs shen is no different. Kuririn puts up a good fight against piccolo, where other than the spirit ball yamcha gets embarrassed by kami in a human body.

Kuririn was also easily defeated by Piccolo once he powered up.