Arc Zamasu / Manga

[SIAD]

Goku Black Base = 12
SSJ = 12.75

Future Trunks Base = 1.02
SSJ = 2.55
SSJ2 = 5.1
SSJ2 "Improved" = 9.9609375

Goku Base = 1
SSJ = 2.5
SSJ2 = 5
SSJ3 = 10
SSJG = 25
SSJB = 50

Vegeta Base = 1
SSJ = 2.5
SSJ2 = 16
SSJG = 25
SSJB = 50

First Voyage to the Future:

Future Trunks Base = 1.28
SSJ = 3.2
SSJ2 = 6.4
SSJ2 "Improved" = 12.5

Goku Base = 1
SSJ = 2.5
SSJ2 = 5
SSJ3 = 10
SSJG = 25
SSJB = 50

Vegeta Base = 1
SSJ = 2.5
SSJ2 = 16
SSJG = 25
SSJB = 50

Goku Black Base = 12.288
SSJ = 15.36
SSJ (Post Zenkai) = 50.331648
SSJ (Peak) = 60
SSJR = 150

Future Zamasu = 10

Second Journey to the Future:

Future Trunks Base = 1.28
SSJ = 3.2
SSJ2 = 6.4
SSJ2 "Improved" = 12.5

Goku Base = 5.5
SSJ = 13.75
SSJ2 = 27.5
SSJ3 = 55
SSJG = 137.5
SSJG (Tired) = 80
SSJB (Tired) = 160
SSJB = 275
SSJB (Tired / Power Up) = 200
PSSJB = 1,375

Vegeta Base = 4
SSJ = 10
SSJ2 = 64
SSJG = 100
SSJB = 200
SSJB (Enraged) = 1,375

Goku Black Base = 12.288
SSJR = 150

Future Zamasu = 10

Merged Zamasu (Initial) = 640
Merged Zamasu (FP) = 1,280

Chapter 27:

Goku Base = 5.5
PSSJB = 1,375

Vegeta Base = 5.5
SSJB = 275
PSSJB = 1,375

 

[SIAD]

@GreatSaiyaman123
@Goku9001

 

[Goku9001]

Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 was definitely on the level of Goku's Super Saiyan 2 based on Vegeta's shock on how Trunks handled his Super Saiyan 2. This may have changed during his training with Trunks prior to fighting Black but it's never made clear. I would wager that Vegeta and Goku did get stronger as well since Goku believed Black was a threat after sparring with Trunks. Goku was also seen training via meditation whereas Vegeta was explicitly training in his Base form against Trunks. Toyotaro is always rather specific about specific power-ups characters make in regards to ki control so it seems odd that a refined SSJ2 isn't mentioned for Vegeta.

From my view, SSJ2 Vegeta likely did surpass God Goku for him to trounce a stronger version of Black that Goku did recognize as a threat.

 

[SIAD]

Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 was definitely on the level of Goku's Super Saiyan 2 based on Vegeta's shock on how Trunks handled his Super Saiyan 2. This may have changed during his training with Trunks prior to fighting Black but it's never made clear. I would wager that Vegeta and Goku did get stronger as well since Goku believed Black was a threat after sparring with Trunks. Goku was also seen training via meditation whereas Vegeta was explicitly training in his Base form against Trunks. Toyotaro is always rather specific about specific power-ups characters make in regards to ki control so it seems odd that a refined SSJ2 isn't mentioned for Vegeta.

From my view, SSJ2 Vegeta likely did surpass God Goku for him to trounce a stronger version of Black that Goku did recognize as a threat.

Don't you believe in the theory that Vegeta got an Enhanced SSJ2 from the boost he had against Beerus in BoG?

I'd like to see your Arc Zamasu/Manga Brawl tier list.

 

[Goku9001]

Don't you believe in the theory that Vegeta got an Enhanced SSJ2 from the boost he had against Beerus in BoG?

I'd like to see your Arc Zamasu/Manga Brawl tier list.

No I don't. It's not even something explained to the reader which is atypical to Toyotaro's style of writing. On top of that, we only see Vegeta training in Base so unless there's something extra conveyed to us, there's really no reason for me to believe that. Vegeta dominated Goku Black because he was training to overcome him like Goku was shown when he was meditating.

 

[SIAD]

No I don't. It's not even something explained to the reader which is atypical to Toyotaro's style of writing. On top of that, we only see Vegeta training in Base so unless there's something extra conveyed to us, there's really no reason for me to believe that. Vegeta dominated Goku Black because he was training to overcome him like Goku was shown when he was meditating.

So Vegeta SSJ2 (First Trip to the Future) =
Goku SSJ2 (First Journey to the Future) > Goku SSJ2 (Start Arc Zamasu)?

 

[Goku9001]

So Vegeta SSJ2 (First Trip to the Future) =
Goku SSJ2 (First Journey to the Future) > Goku SSJ2 (Start Arc Zamasu)?

Yes at the very least. Goku definitely got stronger as well.

 

[SIAD]

Yes at the very least. Goku definitely got stronger as well.

And Goku SSJ2 (First Journey to the Future) > Goku SSJG (Start Arc Zamasu)?

 

[SIAD]

Edited.

 

[Papasmurf]

Yes at the very least. Goku definitely got stronger as well.

Do you think Vegeta learned how to strengthen his SSJ2 to its full potential similar to Trunks?

 

[Goku9001]

Do you think Vegeta learned how to strengthen his SSJ2 to its full potential similar to Trunks?

Nah, not even hinted.

 

[Animelover5487]

Nah, not even hinted.

I mean, Vegeta did strengthen his SSJ2 far beyond SSJ3 Goku in BoG through rage. I don't see it as much of a stretch to assume he controlled it through training, especially after seeing Trunks (an inferior fighter) be able to.

 

[Goku9001]

I mean, Vegeta did strengthen his SSJ2 far beyond SSJ3 Goku in BoG through rage. I don't see it as much of a stretch to assume he controlled it through training, especially after seeing Trunks (an inferior fighter) be able to.

Then Toyotaro should have made it clear like he always does when someone harnesses a special power instead of just having him explicitly training in his Base form.

 

[Papasmurf]

Then Toyotaro should have made it clear like he always does when someone harnesses a special power instead of just having him explicitly training in his Base form.

Toyotaro also had Kibito and Roshi make unexplained huge power jumps as well though

 

[Goku9001]

Toyotaro also had Kibito and Roshi make unexplained huge power jumps as well though

In terms of obtaining new forms and techniques? Hardly. Kibito's and Roshi's is well justified since they're blatantly shown to be training on top of Roshi's battle experience giving him a significant edge when his battle power is lacking. The examples you provided aren't relevant and can go both ways anyways. You have anything more concrete?

 

[Papasmurf]

In terms of obtaining new forms and techniques? Hardly. Kibito's and Roshi's is well justified since they're blatantly shown to be training on top of Roshi's battle experience giving him a significant edge when his battle power is lacking. The examples you provided aren't relevant and can go both ways anyways. You have anything more concrete?

It seems too awkward for Goku and Vegeta's Blue forms to be on the same level when Goku's SSJ3 was weaker than Black's base form a few days before SSJ2 Vegeta held the edge against his SSJ form. Goku isn't shown training at all between his spar with Trunks and Vegeta fighting Black either.

 

[Goku9001]

It seems too awkward for Goku and Vegeta's Blue forms to be on the same level when Goku's SSJ3 was weaker than Black's base form a few days before SSJ2 Vegeta held the edge against his SSJ form. Goku isn't shown training at all between his spar with Trunks and Vegeta fighting Black either.

Goku's Blue form was actually stronger than Vegeta's.

 

[Papasmurf]

Goku's Blue form was actually stronger than Vegeta's.

Goku isn't portrayed to be stronger than Black or Vegeta the first time he fought Future Zamasu.

 

[Goku9001]

Goku isn't portrayed to be stronger than Black or Vegeta the first time he fought Future Zamasu.

Sorry, I was referring to the 2nd visit.

For the first visit, Goku was shown to be meditating which is a form of training.

 

[Papasmurf]

Seems bizarre that Trunks' power doesn't increase much at all from training with Vegeta while Goku and Vegeta get huge increases...