Base Gotenks (pre-RoSaT)'s standing

[Tapion]

How strong do you believe him to be in relation to other major fighters like Vegeta and Goku, or even other arcs like Cell?

I personally have him on par with Super Perfect Cell, or maybe a bit lower, considering the Daizenshuu states he only surpassed Vegeta and co. after the RoSaT, which can be interpreted as his base form (further suggested by the fact they list a picture of his base)

Yamcha and Krillin say he might be able to beat Boo, but they only believed that because of Gotenks's own confidence and not because of his ki as they state themselves. So, the way I see it, they were basing their statements off a (false) belief that Gotenks was suppressing his true power, whereas Piccolo knows what's he sensing is Gotenks's best, and it's nowhere near enough to beat Boo.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'd say just above any of the SS2s, more or less on the level of Good Boo. Whilst Kuririn and Yamcha's opinions are obviously flawed, as is Gotenks, I don't think he'd be anywhere near as confident as he was if he were still below the respective fusee's dads' SS2 power.

You could say that's flawed when considering Goku had already suggested he may not be able to defeat Boo as a SS3 or that Gotenks believed he may still be able to go SSJ after fusion, which would both be fair assessments, though I would bring up Gotenks still managed to escape a battle against Boo who given his anticipation of a strong fighter, may have fought Gotenks seriously. Obviously, this is pure assumption when we don't see the fight in the manga, but I'd still say it's worth noting when Vegeta was almost killed by the same Boo who only took the fight seriously for one instance and was otherwise playing around for the remainder of it.
Also, if wanting to use the anime as supplementary material if it doesn't directly contradict the original source, then the way their fight plays out definitely points to Gotenks' survival being a commendable feat.

 

[Tapion]

Boo's ki signature being abnormal and like a lie merged with Gotenks's arrogance explains why he was so confident in my view. The same thing happened when he took on Super Boo inside the RoSaT.

Gotenks surviving a battle against Boo doesn't mean much. SSj2 Vegeta survived being beaten to all hell by Pure Boo, who even got freaked out and stepped back in fear after after seeing Vegeta survive the intense beating, suggesting he was still outputting SSj3 levels of power. Saiyans are naturally built to be far more durable than they are strong.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The Daizenshuu actually puts a picture of Gotenks in all forms according to Herms, the Base Gotenks thing is only from the Kanzentai site.

I think he's as strong as Pure Evil Boo. Sure, Yamcha and Kuririn were going off his confidence, but when Vegeta got confident Kuririn said he'd get himself killed. They were obviously wrong to think he can take on Boo, but at least they gave him more credit than Vegeta.

I think if he were weaker than Vegeta, Piccolo would've made a comparison. Something like "You're not even stronger than Vegeta, and look how he turned out!" instead of saying "You're incredible, but Boo will shit on you!"

 

[Tapion]

Krillin based off of his statement about Vegeta not standing a chance in the fight itself, whereas his statement on Gotenks only concerns Gotenks's confidence in winning the fight. I believe it's more logical to believe Krillin and Yamcha simply thought Gotenks was holding back his true power for the fight with Boo, hence why nobody mentions his ki:

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P12.5
Context: After Gotenks takes off, saying he'll beat Boo
Kuririn: “He-he’s pretty haughty, but just maybe he re-really will be able to take care of [Boo]…”
Yamcha: “Ye-yeah…He sure seemed pretty confident…”

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I think he's as strong as Pure Evil Boo. Sure, Yamcha and Kuririn were going off his confidence, but when Vegeta got confident Kuririn said he'd get himself killed. They were obviously wrong to think he can take on Boo, but at least they gave him more credit than Vegeta.

To be fair, Vegeta had quite the track record of overestimating himself, whereas Gotenks had a clean slate at that point.

 

[Tapion]

Also, if you use the anime's portrayal of the fight, Gotenks did no better than Vegeta. He got done in with a few hits and immobilized. If he was as strong as Good Boo or even Pure Evil Boo, one would think his all out attack would have done more damage.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Dude is nothing but a gag character even his fight wasn't shown since it was intended to be a joke.

In universe explanation. He's weaker than top SS2 tiers.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Dude is nothing but a gag character even his fight wasn't shown since it was intended to be a joke.

The gag character excuse again...

There's a difference between a comedic and gag character. The latter's feats and actions generally have no impact on the plot or are treated seriously. For example, Mr. Satan is a gag character who whilst playing a substantial support role in the Boo Arc, only does so through his words and not through his feats, which include survive being knocked into a mountain - an obvious gag feat.

Gotenks, on the other hand, is built up as a genuine way to defeat Boo, treat as an actual threat to Evil Boo and offers a solid boost to Boo once absorbed that results in no gags. He's a comedic character, yes, but to write off all his feats as mere gags doesn't work when looking at the instances he's taken seriously within the plot.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Dude is nothing but a gag character even his fight wasn't shown since it was intended to be a joke.

The gag character excuse again...

There's a difference between a comedic and gag character. The latter's feats and actions generally have no impact on the plot or are treated seriously. For example, Mr. Satan is a gag character who whilst playing a substantial support role in the Boo Arc, only does so through his words and not through his feats, which include survive being knocked into a mountain - an obvious gag feat.

Gotenks, on the other hand, is built up as a genuine way to defeat Boo, treat as an actual threat to Evil Boo and offers a solid boost to Boo once absorbed that results in no gags. He's a comedic character, yes, but to write off all his feats as mere gags doesn't work when looking at the instances he's taken seriously within the plot.

SSjin Gotenks is the one who was built up to defeat Boo not base Gotenks. And how can we take Base Gotenks seriously to begin with? The same dude who thought he could take Fat Boo despite knowing that it would take a SSjin3 level to do it but nope instead he overrate himself and got destroyed. His fight wasn't even shown and treated as a joke pretty much says it all. Another example is that he thought he can actually beat Super Boo and looked what happened, same thing. Another example is that despite seeing Gohan and Boo getting destroyed by Beerus and this punk think he can actually stand a chance and what happened to him? He got destroyed.

SSjin Gotenks is indeed strong but his base self is a joke.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

SSjin Gotenks is the one who was built up to defeat Boo not base Gotenks. And how can we take Base Gotenks seriously to begin with? The same dude who thought he could take Fat Boo despite knowing that it would take a SSjin3 level to do it but nope instead he overrate himself and got destroyed. His fight wasn't even shown and treated as a joke pretty much says it all. Another example is that he thought he can actually beat Super Boo and looked what happened, same thing. Another example is that despite seeing Gohan and Boo getting destroyed by Beerus and this punk think he can actually stand a chance and what happened to him? He got destroyed.

SSjin Gotenks is indeed strong but his base self is a joke.

That makes Gotenks an unreliable opinion, not a gag character.

His opinion of Evil Boo is justified when not only is Boo's Ki described as a "lie" when people try to read it, but even Piccolo buys into the idea when sensing Gotenks' power despite being assured Base Gotenks would lose to Fat Boo when the fusion first succeeded. If Base Gotenks is a "joke", then so is Piccolo and the inconsistency between the statement and feat would only be a "gag" when ignoring the nature of Boo's Ki that had already been established several times before.

Also, the example with Beerus was when he was a SS3 in the manga and SSJ in the anime, so it doesn't really support your claim of Base Gotenks just being a "gag".

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

SSjin Gotenks is the one who was built up to defeat Boo not base Gotenks. And how can we take Base Gotenks seriously to begin with? The same dude who thought he could take Fat Boo despite knowing that it would take a SSjin3 level to do it but nope instead he overrate himself and got destroyed. His fight wasn't even shown and treated as a joke pretty much says it all. Another example is that he thought he can actually beat Super Boo and looked what happened, same thing. Another example is that despite seeing Gohan and Boo getting destroyed by Beerus and this punk think he can actually stand a chance and what happened to him? He got destroyed.

SSjin Gotenks is indeed strong but his base self is a joke.

That makes Gotenks an unreliable opinion, not a gag character.

His opinion of Evil Boo is justified when not only is Boo's Ki described as a "lie" when people try to read it, but even Piccolo buys into the idea when sensing Gotenks' power despite being assured Base Gotenks would lose to Fat Boo when the fusion first succeeded. If Base Gotenks is a "joke", then so is Piccolo and the inconsistency between the statement and feat would only be a "gag" when ignoring the nature of Boo's Ki that had already been established several times before.

Also, the example with Beerus was when he was a SS3 in the manga and SSJ in the anime, so it doesn't really support your claim of Base Gotenks just being a "gag".

If Boo's ki's is a lie how does that work then? You mean to tell me that either that Boo powered up when he fought Base Gotenks in the chamber because that didn't happen at all since Boo was just standing and waiting for Gotenks to tell him to start the fight so he didn't powered up. Piccolo seems to be optimistic on the whole fight IMO. Seems to me that the whole thing was intended into a comedy and nothing else.

Base Gotenks fought Beerus in the anime but he was SSjin in the movie. As for the manga, we don't know the whole fight how it happened for all we know Gotenks was base earlier and turned SS3 later and still got destroyed.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

If Boo's ki's is a lie how does that work then? You mean to tell me that either that Boo powered up when he fought Base Gotenks in the chamber

Yes. Despite not powering up, his power was obviously changing during the battle as he went from not being too far above SSJ Gotenks and almost being destroyed by the SKGA to being on par with SS3 Gotenks despite having no noticeable power up. It's also clear that Boo's increase in power is more than just mere suppression, since Goku wouldn't find it relevant enough to say Boo's Ki is a lie if it were something so simple.

Base Gotenks fought Beerus in the anime but he was SSjin in the movie. As for the manga, we don't know the whole fight how it happened for all we know Gotenks was base earlier and turned SS3 later and still got destroyed.

Regardless of the media, his confidence was the same in all 3, so saying it's evidence of anything Base Gotenks does just being a "joke" and not just an inaccurate opinion is still flawed.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

If Boo's ki's is a lie how does that work then? You mean to tell me that either that Boo powered up when he fought Base Gotenks in the chamber

Yes. Despite not powering up, his power was obviously changing during the battle as he went from not being too far above SSJ Gotenks and almost being destroyed by the SKGA to being on par with SS3 Gotenks despite having no noticeable power up. It's also clear that Boo's increase in power is more than just mere suppression, since Goku wouldn't find it relevant enough to say Boo's Ki is a lie if it were something so simple.

Base Gotenks fought Beerus in the anime but he was SSjin in the movie. As for the manga, we don't know the whole fight how it happened for all we know Gotenks was base earlier and turned SS3 later and still got destroyed.

Regardless of the media, his confidence was the same in all 3, so saying it's evidence of anything Base Gotenks does just being a "joke" and not just an inaccurate opinion is still flawed.

Nope maybe Boo was just strong too strong for Gotenks until Gotenks went SS3 to match Boo's strength. Boo didn't need to power up to fight Gotenks at all which implied he was just toying Gotenks the whole time until the SS3 which was stated by Piccolo. Piccolo knew Gotenks doesn't stand a chance after Base Gotenks punches and kicks didn't work and was just optimistic on the whole situation and hope there will be a miracle.

The whole thing about Boo's ki is a lie thing seems to imply that he can stronger anytime he wants and there's no depth of his power and the only time he hit his limit is when he was no match to Gohan and was desperate enough to use his absorption technique .

 

[Captain Cadaver]

And if anything, all that just reinforces the idea that Boo can go from seemingly equal to Base Gotenks to being far stronger than him without need of a visible power up. It reinforces the idea that Base Gotenks and Piccolo had accurate estimations before Boo revealed that wasn't his limit or the peak of his effort.

 

[Tapion]

No matter what people say, nobody can go against the clear-cut "he really has powered up!" quote that establishes Base Gotenks > SSj Gotenks (Pre)

 

[Jeff Styles]

Stronger than Vegeta, weaker than Goku.

 

[sei'taer]

He's SSJ2 tier. You can have him stronger if you like. But gag or no he gets the shit beat out of him by buu. So he can't be that much stronger than vegeta if at all.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

He's SSJ2 tier. You can have him stronger if you like. But gag or no he gets the shit beat out of him by buu. So he can't be that much stronger than vegeta if at all.

The gap between Vegeta and Boo is huge enough that the combined efforts of Vegeta, Goku and Gohan would still do nothing to Boo, not to mention the gap between them being at least over 3x if taking into account official sources such as the SEG. Base Gotenks could be twice as strong as Vegeta and the result would be the same.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So [mention]Tapion[/mention] why do you think Base Gotenks is SPC tier? Any feat or statement in particular, or it's just what you ended up with in your numbers?