Base Saiyans in the manga

[Six Trails]

There's no statement of Goku absorbing the god Ki from Super Saiyan God in the manga and no Base/SS fight against Beers, so is it safe to assume that the manga Base Saiyans and thus most U6 characters aren't God level?

 

[Pyro]

That's the easiest and less assumptive route to take.

 

[Void]

Their usage of SSG suggests to me they aren't God level outside of that form or anything above it.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Not exactly God level, but closer to it than their pre-God power as evidenced by SSJ Goku and Hit being implied to be not far weaker than roughly 10% of SSB Vegeta's power.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Their base form are strong but not a God tier like their SSG form.

 

[freezamite]

Their base form upgraded after the god ritual, but not their SSJ transformations which seem to be just as powerful as they were.

Pre God:
Base state ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> SSJ1 ----> SSJ2 --> SSJ3

Post God:
Base state ----------------> SSJ1 ----> SSJ2 --> SSJ3

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Not God level, but rather stronger regardless. Not only SSJ is a considerable percentage of Blue as implied by Whis, but there are also feats like Base Goku fighting Freeza (Who's considered a monster by Gohan and Piccolo) on the FnF manga (That is canon, right?) and holding his own with Hit. Though the later seems to be kind of an outlier given how Hit was about the same as SSJ Goku.

You know, this reminds me of some people on another forum who think Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks etc are not much stronger than the Boo Arc SSJs because there is of no Base = God statement.

 

[Flame]

No, I don't think so. They still recevied a massive power up from Whis' training though imo. Just not as big as the anime.

 

[freezamite]

No, I don't think so. They still recevied a massive power up from Whis' training though imo. Just not as big as the anime.

They didn't. If the manga is consistent with the previous work (the original DB manga) the saiyans can't increase their strength past their limit. In other words, their only way of improving is by getting new forms (those are usually related to the control they have over their ki).
Only when a form wasn't fully mastered can improve (Vegeta upgrading his SSJ2 in the BoG saga), but not the base state (since it's a fully mastered form per se).

 

[Captain Cadaver]

They didn't. If the manga is consistent with the previous work (the original DB manga) the saiyans can't increase their strength past their limit. In other words, their only way of improving is by getting new forms (those are usually related to the control they have over their ki).
Only when a form wasn't fully mastered can improve (Vegeta upgrading his SSJ2 in the BoG saga), but not the base state (since it's a fully mastered form per se).

So you believe Boo Arc MSSJ Goku is stronger than someone not much weaker than 10% of SSB Vegeta's power?

 

[freezamite]

They didn't. If the manga is consistent with the previous work (the original DB manga) the saiyans can't increase their strength past their limit. In other words, their only way of improving is by getting new forms (those are usually related to the control they have over their ki).
Only when a form wasn't fully mastered can improve (Vegeta upgrading his SSJ2 in the BoG saga), but not the base state (since it's a fully mastered form per se).

So you believe Boo Arc MSSJ Goku is stronger than someone not much weaker than 10% of SSB Vegeta's power?

Not stronger. MSSJ Goku knew the time-skip trick and that's why he could fight Hit. Vegeta could've been a bit stronger than that MSSJ Goku and still loose badly because he didn't know Hit's trick and couldn't anticipate to his attacks (which meant that they were as effective as if they were a surprise attack).
I consider that MSSJ Goku to be a bit below Vegeta's blue in strength, and Whis says Vegeta wasn't able to extract even 10% of his power, not that he was at 10% of his power.

So yeah, Bu saga Goku MSSJ to be at 8-9% of U6 tournament saga Blue Vegeta makes sense to me. The God increase is huge, but in DB even a 1.5x power up is considered to be huge, so the God forms having 6-7 times the strength of the regular SSJ (SSJ2 and SSJ3 are marginal increases. SSJ3 shouldn't be much more than a 10% increase over SSJ2, and SSJ2 a mere 30% over SSJ1) and the SSJ Blue from the U6 tournament saga was his incomplete form (at least the one used by Vegeta) which is a small power up compared to the God form (I saw it as the same as going from SSJ2 to SSJ3).

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Not stronger.

Except Beerus clearly states that Goku is stronger than Hit.

Vegeta could've been a bit stronger than that MSSJ Goku and still loose badly because he didn't know Hit's trick and couldn't anticipate to his attacks (which meant that they were as effective as if they were a surprise attack).

Even taking off-guard feats into account, there's no way Hit would be able to damage Vegeta that much with the Time Skip if not in close proximity to his power/speed, since Vegeta would simply surpass it like SSB Goku did.

I consider that MSSJ Goku to be a bit below Vegeta's blue in strength, and Whis says Vegeta wasn't able to extract even 10% of his power, not that he was at 10% of his power.

If Vegeta wasn't at least close to 10%, then there'd be no reason for Whis to use it as a measuring stick compared to say, 5% or 1%.

So yeah, Bu saga Goku MSSJ to be at 8-9% of U6 tournament saga Blue Vegeta makes sense to me.

Even though the gap between God Ki users and all previous characters is astronomical.

 

[freezamite]

Except Beerus clearly states that Goku is stronger than Hit.

Yes, but you have to accomodate that observation with the fact that the TimeSkip wouldn't have worked at 100% efficiency (and Hit said nothing about his TS failing until Goku became SSJ God) if that had truly been the case.
In other words, Hit was restraining his restrained power while fighting SSJ Goku and unrestrained it just enough to fully paralyze him the whole 0.1 seconds in order to save stamina.

That observation of Beerus was there to empathise how big of an advantage the TS ability was even when the trick was known to the opponent.

If you think about it, Hit knew Goku wasn't using his full power and he thought Goku's Blue would be like Vegeta's blue, so it's only logical for him to take that into account when fighting SSJ Goku.
Hit has a lot of pride as a fighter (he let Monaka win and helped Goku in the ToP) so it's only logical for him to not try to 1-hit ko Goku when he knew Goku was restraining his power. In that sense, his wait-and-see strategy made a lot of sense because he thought he had Goku totally checked.

The problems for Hit started when Goku jumped to the God forms and realised that not even his "normal" max power could compete with them after thinking that what he saw from Vegeta was those forms real power (he didn't know about Blue's drawback).

Even taking off-guard feats into account, there's no way Hit would be able to damage Vegeta that much with the Time Skip if not in close proximity to his power/speed, since Vegeta would simply surpass it like SSB Goku did.

Off-guard feats far surpass your usual power difference (see Piccolo's kick to 50% Freezer for example). Furthermore, that power difference between less than 10% SSJ Blue Vegeta and MSSJ Goku doesn't need to be big or in fact exist at all.
I'm just saying that by what happened in the manga SSJBlue Vegeta could be a bit stronger than MSSJ Goku, not that this had to be forcibly the case.

If Vegeta wasn't at least close to 10%, then there'd be no reason for Whis to use it as a measuring stick compared to say, 5% or 1%.

Yes, that's right, that's why I say 8-9%. It was less than 10 but close to it. The thing is that when speaking about forms that far off between them when it comes to the power they provide, that small % actually matters a lot.
In DB a 10-15% difference in power grants a victory, so being 9% of SSJB compared to being 10% of SSJB is a huge difference from a MSSJ pow.

Even though the gap between God Ki users and all previous characters is astronomical.

And it totally is. I mean, if a 10-15% difference already grants a victory, the 600-700% increase I give the God form over the SSJ3 is astronomical as hell.