Gogeta's Analysis

[Pakl]

Gogeta is underrated.. People have his SSjin 3 weaker than Gohan-Boo which is ridiculous

I am gonna prove he is not that weak.. I agree SSjin Gogeta is weaker than Gohan-Boo.. SSjin Gogeta ~ Ultimate Gohan IMO but to ay SSjin 2 Gogeta is weaker than Gohan-Boo let alone SSjin 3 Gogeta is just ridiculous..

Let's start with the Potara introduction:

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P6.2-6
Context: Elder Kaioshin gives the Potara to Goku
Elder Kaioshin: “Here! Put this Potara on your left ear! [ ] Put the other one on Gohan’s ear. Just by doing that, you two will be able to merge together! Like with Fusion.â€￾
Goku: “Huh! Re-really!?â€￾
Elder Kaioshin: “Of course. And what’s more, the effect is greater than with Fusion! This has been the trump card treasure of the Kaioshins since long ago.â€￾

While it's stated Potara is more effective than Fusion and likely stronger.. It was never implied it was leagues ahead of it or anything. The entire argument of Gogeta being weak compared to Boo is based on quotes of Boo which "imply" Gogeta is no match for him and the gap between the kids and the adults which "is not that big" according to some.. However, let's take a closer look at the quotes..

Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P9.2
Context: as Goku heads to Vegeta with the Potara
Boo: “Now there’s another human with great power! But naturally he’s no match for me, even if they merged!â€￾

People use this quote to prove Gohan-Boo is stronger than SSjin 3 Gogeta but there are some flaws here.

Gohan-Boo doesn't have enough knowledge about the Fusion and he was just cocky.. Sure, he has Piccolo's bain but he also has the kids's cokiness.. Furthermore, he only sensed Base Vegeta... He didn't know who the ki belonged too as evident in the Anime too so basically, he means Base Gogeta would be no match for him.. If Freeza was to stand near Goku, would he think they can go SSjin? Of course not so Gohan-Boos quote means nothing..

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!â€￾

Here Goku thinks that fusion with Gohan and going SSjin would make them stronger than Gotenks-Boo.. Goku doesn't know how Potara is and was just told it was more effective but then Elder Kaioshin says the Potara is incredibly strong.. In Goku's mind, SSjin Gokuhan can take on Gotenks-Boo.. Plus, we know Goku though that using Fusion with Gohan would be enough to beat Gotenks-Boo.. Fusion Dance Gohan should be as strong as Gogeta...

Goku thinks they should use SSjin to beat Gotenks-Boo but Elder Kaioshin says base would be enough because the Potara is incredible.. That implies, Base Potara ~ SSjin Fusion which implies Base Vegetto ~ SSjin Gogeta

Put in mind Base Vgetto should be a beast too..

Now, for the kids and the adults...

There is no evidence the kids are close to the adults.. That's dispoven during the arc... Goten was a good sparring partner for Gohan.. Sure it seemed like he gave him troubles but the plot wanted to show the surprise at them being strong for their age..

Chapter: 427 (DBZ 233), P12.2-6
Context: after Gohan and Goten spar a little bit
Goten: “But you really are amazing, big brother! I couldn’t even hit you once.â€￾
Gohan: “You’re very gifted at grappling too, Goten! You really surprised me! I hadn’t known you were that good! If you train well, maybe you’ll be able to enter the Tenkaichi Budoukai too!â€￾
Goten: “Really!? But Trunks is even stronger than me. We play-fight together!â€￾
Gohan: “Really!? That’s how you guys have been playing?...*thinking* If I’m not careful, I’ll be outstripped…by these little squirts…â€￾


Goten says Gohan is incredible and he was unable to lay a hit.. That proves Gohan should be much stronger than the kids... Goten being unable to lay a hit is proof of this.. Gohan was also rusty.. Goten admits he is nowhere near Gohan.. The Anime also shows a sparing which shows Gohan being able to easily beat Goten and Goten admits he is much weaker.. Sure the Anime is non canon but nothing contradicts it in the Manga

The other thing I keep hearing is the fact Gohan says he would be surpassed if he keeps not training so that means the kids are close.. That's false.. Gohan's line doesn't mean the kids are close to him.. Remember, Gohan surpassed Goku in a yea in the RoSaT and achieved SSjin and SSjin 2.. If two kids who never trained have SSjins and are strong for their age so imagine what would they be like if they train.. It's similar to Freeza having a lot of potential and being so strong in Revival of F..

Finally:
Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!â€￾
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest

Notice How Gohan, Goku and Vegeta are the top 3 master. It he doesn't say that Goku and Vegeta are 2 of the top 5 master in the universe, again the boys are not worthy enough to be considered top masters of the universe, we also have Goku being unimpressed at the lookout with their full power..

If the kids were close to Gohan, why being unimpressed? The kids are also weaker than Android 18 in base.. Base Adults are >> Android 18 IMO

Now, Teen Gohan is far below Boo Arc Goku... I have him 60% of Goku.. The kids are well below Gohan so they are at least less than half of Goku.. Now for Post RoSaT kids

When Piccolo sees the kids after the training, he is not impressed and never comments on their ki.. Only after Gotenks is formed, it's stated Gotenks has gotten much stronger

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!â€￾

Why is Gotenks much stronger but the kids barely got stronger? Well, Piccolo explains it

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…â€￾
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!â€￾

Piccolo states that small gains for the kids would be much greater as fused which is why Gotenks got so strong.. Now, the gap between the kids and the adults is already massive... That means the gap between Gogeta and Gotenks would be much bigger... Plus, Gogeta should get rival boosts as Vegetto got one... The rival boosts comes from Goku ad Vegeta.. Kaioshin says the reason he is strong because he is fused and not because the method of the fusion.. That's why they are also considered top masters.. Trunks and Goten are not rivals but friends.. They don't live to surpass each other like Goku and Vegeta.. Kaioshin talking about Goku and Vegeta is because they are the rivals which is why they are mentioned as top masters

Now based on that Gogeta should be multiple times stronger than Gotenks... That means that at the very least SSjin 3 Gogeta >> Gohan-Boo... Fusion is not linear...

Now to take a look at Toiyama's comment

What about the concept of the Potara?
That was simply, since Fusion was a plot point that was already taken by one of the movies, I was wondering
what I should do; I had always been drawing earrings [on KaiÅ￾shin], so I thought, “perhaps I can use theseâ€￾…

Notice, he says he used Potara because Fusion was used in the movie? He never said Gogeta is weak or no match for Boo.. The author considers M12 Gogeta to be the same as Manga Gogeta.. M12 Vegeta equals his canon self so M12 Gogeta ~ Canon Gogeta

SSjin Gogeta easily beat Janemba who is at least around Suppressed Evil Boo who beat SSjin Gotenks as the movie was revealed when SSjin Gotenks used the Ghost Kamikazie vs Evil Boo

SSjin Gogeta is described in the Daizenshuu as the strongest in the universe so SSjin Gogeta > Evil Boo.. It's likely SSjin Gogeta ~ Ultimate Gohan based on the time line of the movie and the implication of SSjin Gogeta ~ Base Vegetto who is weaker than Gohan-Boo

http://web.archive.org/web/20111104033446/http://kanzentai.com/trans-daiz06.php?m=15&id=dbz12#link

So in short, nothing implies Gogeta is weak.. He is implied to be a beast by the movie canon and Toriyama himself and the Daizenshuu..

The argument of him being weak is based on the bias of the kids being close to their fathers which is also wrong and some twisted quotes of the others.. SSjin Gogeta is weaker than Gohan-Boo but SSjin 2 Gogeta destroys him... SSjin 3 Gogeta > SSjin Vegetto IMO

 

[Six Trails]

Here's a much better analysis: http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8402385/1/

 

[Pakl]

Lol what? Did you even read my post? I addressed all those things in my post

You ignore my post and use other one's addressed things just to fit what you believe

 

[Lord Brofist]

Why would Gotenks Boo not take into consideration the other SSJ forms that Goku has? This is probably one of the few rare cases where one can't blame villain arrogance because Boo's actually playing it very safe. He believes he can win if Goku and Gohan fuse but is also wary and isn't going to risk it.

Why would he not infer that Gohan's going to fuse with SSj3 Goku or something or heck, even just SSJ2 Goku?

And with that in mind why would someone like Gogeta, who would because of the need to equalize powers for the individuals be equal to one another be stronger?

What Toei and their movie says doesn't amount to what is implied in the actual manga. The manga is pretty much implying that Gohkan>~Gotenks Boo.

Take the issues of fusion, take Boo's knowledge on said fusion, the SSJ transformations, Goku and Gohan and is it really all that surprisingly that someone like SSj3 Gogeta would only be just above Gotenks Boo?

Take this into consideration. The potara was treated as something far, far stronger than the dance. It got to the point where Goku who despite knowing that it was superior, thought he still might need SSJ against Gotenks Boo until Elder Kaioshin told him otherwise.

Now add this in. Even SSJ Vegetto did not expect himself to have as large of a gap against Gohan Boo as he did. So take Super Vegetto who by own merit didn't think he was going to be as strong as he was and drastically reduce his power.

Is it really all that surprising that someone like SSj3 Gogeta might at best, rival Gohan Boo?

 

[Pakl]

Why would Gotenks Boo not take into consideration the other SSJ forms that Goku has? This is probably one of the few rare cases where one can't blame villain arrogance because Boo's actually playing it very safe. He believes he can win if Goku and Gohan fuse but is also wary and isn't going to risk it.

Why would he not infer that Gohan's going to fuse with SSj3 Goku or something or heck, even just SSJ2 Goku?

And with that in mind why would someone like Gogeta, who would because of the need to equalize powers for the individuals be equal to one another be stronger?

What Toei and their movie says doesn't amount to what is implied in the actual manga. The manga is pretty much implying that Gohkan>~Gotenks Boo.

Take the issues of fusion, take Boo's knowledge on said fusion, the SSJ transformations, Goku and Gohan and is it really all that surprisingly that someone like SSj3 Gogeta would only be just above Gotenks Boo?

Take this into consideration. The potara was treated as something far, far stronger than the dance. It got to the point where Goku who despite knowing that it was superior, thought he still might need SSJ against Gotenks Boo until Elder Kaioshin told him otherwise.

Now add this in. Even SSJ Vegetto did not expect himself to have as large of a gap against Gohan Boo as he did. So take Super Vegetto who by own merit didn't think he was going to be as strong as he was and drastically reduce his power.

Is it really all that surprising that someone like SSj3 Gogeta might at best, rival Gohan Boo?

Why would Boo's statements should be taken seriously? He wants to interfere not because he is worried but because he just wanted to finish it off... Plus, it's retarded to think their fusion would be weaker than Boo when Gohan is just 1.4x weaker than him

Why would what?
The Manga never implied such a thing.. You base it on Boo who knows nothing and coky

M12 Gogeta and Manga Gogeta are equals and Toriyama agrees

Also Gokuhan being weaker than Boo is retarded because Gohan alone should be strong to survive Gotenks-Boo

Boo's knowledge is limited and he has the kids's cockiness

You use it and ignore the other evidence... Boo's statement is meaningless.. Goku who has knowledge thinks they can beat Boo if they fuse

Nowhere was it implied it was far far stronger and it was implied by Kaioshin Base Potara ~ SSjin Fusion.. You agree? Well, then Base Vegetto ~ SSjin Gogeta is clear and Base Vegetto is strong

Yes, because SSjin Gogeta is weaker than Gohan-Boo.. Vegettto expected he would be strong but not strog to make Gohan-Boo a fool

SSjin Vegetto >> SSjin Vegetto (expected) > Gohan-Boo > SSjin Gogeta ~ Ultimate Gohan


Yes it is.. It's retarded and you are ignoring the evidence which make Gogeta >>> Gohan-Boo at least at SSjin 3...
The gap between Gohan-Boo to SSjin 3 Gotenks is 2.5x... Gogeta and Gotenks gap is much bigger based on what I posted

 

[Lord Brofist]

Why would Boo's statements should be taken seriously? He wants to interfere not because he is worried but because he just wanted to finish it off... Plus, it's retarded to think their fusion would be weaker than Boo when Gohan is just 1.4x weaker than him

It's best to address this first part here. Why should we take Boo seriously? Why shouldn't we take him seriously? I can throw this same thing back? Why should I take Goku seriously? Boo at least has people inside of him with intrinsic knowledge on fusion and the limits to it. He has several people inside of him that know about the SSj transformations. He has Piccolo's intelligence. If anything I'd take what Boo says right now over what Goku says.

And you do know that Gohan has to drop himself down to Goku's level to enact the fusion dance right?

 

[Pyro]

"Undoubtedly futile, but why risk it?"

That sounds like concern, otherwise there'd be no purpose of the usage of "risk" in there. It wasn't about needing to finish everyone off then and there.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Keep in mind that the fusion is an effect of two warriors and its not just like multiplying it. Elder Kaioshin even described it as an effect not stronger. In other words the Potara is effective to the both warriors.

Base Vegito surprised Boo and after turning into SSJ, he still thought he would win despite knowing that Vegito has an ability to transform into SSJ3.

Some of here counter that Boohan was delusional which is why he can't accept it which is different than being cocky but guess what isntead beimg delusional why he didn't contradict his previous statement such as the Potara isn't just an ordinary fusion which can argue that he know how strong the regular fusion but he didn't said it which proves he's completely arrogant and underrating the fusion.

 

[Pakl]

Why would Boo's statements should be taken seriously? He wants to interfere not because he is worried but because he just wanted to finish it off... Plus, it's retarded to think their fusion would be weaker than Boo when Gohan is just 1.4x weaker than him

It's best to address this first part here. Why should we take Boo seriously? Why shouldn't we take him seriously? I can throw this same thing back? Why should I take Goku seriously? Boo at least has people inside of him with intrinsic knowledge on fusion and the limits to it. He has several people inside of him that know about the SSj transformations. He has Piccolo's intelligence. If anything I'd take what Boo says right now over what Goku says.

And you do know that Gohan has to drop himself down to Goku's level to enact the fusion dance right?

Boo has the kids's cockiness

Boo didn't know what they were using.. It's ridiculous to take a villain's line seriusly.. Goku's knowledge is the best and he thought SSjin Gokuhan can beat Boo.. Maybe, Boo thought they can't go SSjin because of Gohan? Anyway, you rely on stupid villain and ignores the rest of the things I posted

 

[Pyro]

Villain arrogance is quite a weak copout.

 

[Pakl]

No it's not.. Boo's statements are wrong and contradicted by other sources

 

[Pyro]

No it's not.. Boo's statements are wrong and contradicted by other sources

Only says you. He's not contradicted by any other character in the story. Contrarily, Goku agreed with him.

 

[Pakl]

Goku never agreed.. He thought SSjin Gokuhan can beat him

Plus, the other sources where Gogeta is mentioned prove he is wrong... His statement is vague and it's not like he knew how the fusion is gonna be.. He could of meant it's futile because Goku is weak compared to Gohan so the fusion won't work

Why do you ignore the other things I posted?

 

[Lord Brofist]

Why would Boo's statements should be taken seriously? He wants to interfere not because he is worried but because he just wanted to finish it off... Plus, it's retarded to think their fusion would be weaker than Boo when Gohan is just 1.4x weaker than him

It's best to address this first part here. Why should we take Boo seriously? Why shouldn't we take him seriously? I can throw this same thing back? Why should I take Goku seriously? Boo at least has people inside of him with intrinsic knowledge on fusion and the limits to it. He has several people inside of him that know about the SSj transformations. He has Piccolo's intelligence. If anything I'd take what Boo says right now over what Goku says.

And you do know that Gohan has to drop himself down to Goku's level to enact the fusion dance right?

Boo has the kids's cockiness

Boo didn't know what they were using.. It's ridiculous to take a villain's line seriusly.. Goku's knowledge is the best and he thought SSjin Gokuhan can beat Boo.. Maybe, Boo thought they can't go SSjin because of Gohan? Anyway, you rely on stupid villain and ignores the rest of the things I posted

Boo also has Piccolo's intelligence which actually outshines any cockiness shown by the kids considering Boo still decided to play it safe anyways.

Cockiness is not a worthy point of trying to support your argument especially when Boo isn't even being cocky, in fact he's actually being quite careful. Why would Boo think they can't go Super Saiyan? All Boo has to do is look at Goku and just imagine if Gohan fuses with SSj Goku or SSj2 Goku or SSj3 Goku.

Goku also never says that a fusion dance of SSJ Gohkan would be able to beat Boo. He wonders if he should transform into a Super Saiyan when using the potara which has already been stated to be superior to the dance.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Boo also has Piccolo's intelligence which actually outshines any cockiness shown by the kids considering Boo still decided to play it safe anyways.[]

The same thing he said against Vegito? I don't think so...

Cockiness is not a worthy point of trying to support your argument especially when Boo isn't even being cocky, in fact he's actually being quite careful. Why would Boo think they can't go Super Saiyan? All Boo has to do is look at Goku and just imagine if Gohan fuses with SSj Goku or SSj2 Goku or SSj3 Goku.[]

He thought he could beat Vegito even knowing that Vegito has two transformation reserved.

Goku also never says that a fusion dance of SSJ Gohkan would be able to beat Boo. He wonders if he should transform into a Super Saiyan when using the potara which has already been stated to be superior to the dance.[]

The fact is that Elder Kaioshin answered differently. He said with Potara power base is plenty enough to beat Boo. Keep in mind 'greater' doesn't have to be different league of the others.

 

[Pyro]

He didn't think he could beat Vegetto. He knew he was fucked from the smoke trick on.

I don't have my computer for a bit so I can't post much rifht now.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

From what I've remember he said that after Vegito turn into SSJ.

 

[Six Trails]

And Vegetto noted Buu wasn't actually sensing Ki and relying on his eyes. After a beating from Vegetto, Buu's demeanor changes. He isn't still smirking or claiming superiority, he was just frustrated and resorting to dirty tricks like the smoke, the Kamikaze Ghosts, and the Candy Beam.

He was desperate not arrogant.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

That was after the battle in the smoke but my point is that after Vegito turn into SSJ and deflect Boo's attacked Boo said he won't lose someone like Vegito which is part of arrogance.

 

[Pyro]

He won't lose because he's going to use his myriad of tricks to steal the W.