Pui-Pui vs SSj Goku (Namek)

[Captain Cadaver]

Shin should still be more than capable of judging both of their capabilities through their movements as characters have ever since the early arcs of Part 1, and all he mentioned was Vegeta being stronger than he thought rather than Pui Pui being weaker than he estimated.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

They should

Well, if Kaioshin couldn't sense Pui Pui, shouldn't that mean Kaioshin's concerns over him were based on the possibility of Babidi gathering someone strong? Ik this is old, but I wanted to raise this btw.

This leads to the question of why would Babidi draft people weaker than Kaioshin and then be surprised the guy got wrecked.

 

[SSJ2]

Pocus is among the most elite fighters in all of Z. He handled 10x gravity far better than SSJ Goku or Gohan could handle it in the RoSaT during their training. At bare minimum he's above 50% Cell Games SSJ Goku.

 

[ahill1]

Shin should still be more than capable of judging both of their capabilities through their movements as characters have ever since the early arcs of Part 1, and all he mentioned was Vegeta being stronger than he thought rather than Pui Pui being weaker than he estimated.

But then he sensed ssj2 Gohan at the Budokai and should therein know how Pui Pui's level opponents are nothing. Maybe he was surprised by Vegeta being that strong while only in base?

 

[SSJ2]

Kaioshin also forgot that Kibito had seen SSJ2 Gohan, so it's likely that AT forgot about that during the ship events.

 

[ahill1]

Kaioshin also forgot that Kibito had seen SSJ2 Gohan, so it's likely that AT forgot about that during the ship events.

He had Kaioshin remembering the exact instance Kaioshin paralysed Gohan.

 

[SSJ2]

Kaioshin was lost from that point on. Maybe AT forgot that Gohan was SSJ2 there (hence why he wasn't drawn as one later).



His credibility is gone after this. What does he even mean by this? Why does he only remember Gohan's power after this moment? Then there's also this quote:

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being so tough
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”

As far as we know Gohan was at full power there. This statement makes no sense.

Kaioshin is beyond inconsistent in this part of the arc.

 

[ahill1]

Like I said, maybe he's only surprised that Vegeta is this strong while in base?

Later on he states that now he sees why they are so confident, since [like Goku] they can put forth power like that in a pinch. Maybe he just wasn't counting with them putting forth their tremendous SSJ power that fast? After all, Gohan seemed to take some time to transform. Goku upped to SSJ2 almost instantly.

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.4-5
Context: after Goku kills Yakon
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…Wh…what a completely unbelievable fact…that I, Kaioshin, should be thrown into a panic by humans of the lower world…”

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But then he sensed ssj2 Gohan at the Budokai and should therein know how Pui Pui's level opponents are nothing. Maybe he was surprised by Vegeta being that strong while only in base?

That’s exactly what happened. “That strong” being stronger than Kaioshin himself.

SSJ2 Gohan > Base Vegeta > Pocus > Kaioshin

Kaioshin also forgot that Kibito had seen SSJ2 Gohan, so it's likely that AT forgot about that during the ship events.

He didn’t forget, it’s that Kibito didn’t see Gohan at his full power. In the Budokai just transformed to show the form mostly.

I don’t think Toriyama forgot that, it’s just that he wasn’t very careful in making things clear. Kaioshin knows he’s outmatched, but he probably thought they needed SSJ.

 

[ahill1]

That’s exactly what happened. “That strong” being stronger than Kaioshin himself.

SSJ2 Gohan > Base Vegeta > Pocus > Kaioshin



He didn’t forget, it’s that Kibito didn’t see Gohan at his full power. In the Budokai just transformed to show the form mostly.

I don’t think Toriyama forgot that, it’s just that he wasn’t very careful in making things clear. Kaioshin knows he’s outmatched, but he probably thought they needed SSJ.

You'd need to have base Vegeta > ssj2 Gohan if you took Shin's reaction seriously.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You'd need to have base Vegeta > ssj2 Gohan if you took Shin's reaction seriously.

Well I wouldn’t mind that

The most likely answer is that he just didn’t expect Vegeta specially to be that strong though, specially in base. Or maybe Kaioshin really was just freaking out. It doesn’t really matter when Babidi still knows how strong Kaioshin is nonetheless.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Yeah. Unlike with Goku who he'd heard rumours of or Gohan who he'd seen in person, he didn't really have anything to go off for Vegeta. At best, he might have considered him comparable to Goku, which further supports Pui Pui > Shin as he also considered himself unable to beat Goku from what he'd heard. It's not as if he needs to be above SS2 Gohan in Shin's mind, considering it's only on Stage 2 that Shin gets any indication Gohan isn't the strongest amongst them.