SSJ3 Gogeta/Gokhan > Buuhan?

[GSM123]

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”

So Goku asks Elder if he needs to transform before fusing only being familiarized with the Fusion Dance, and the Kids need to turn SSJ in order to have a SSJ Gotenks before the Rosat.

Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P9.2
Context: as Goku heads to Vegeta with the Potara
Boo: “Now there’s another human with great power! But naturally he’s no match for me, even if they merged!”

So we know Buuhan >> SSJ2 Gogeta/Gokhan > Buutenks. But via scaling Buuhan can't be multifolder above Buutenks, while a SSJ3 is multifolder above a SSJ2. Does this implies Gogeta could beat Buu as a SSJ3?

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Goku needs to turn into SSjin which can implies that a hypothetical fusion dance SSjin Gokhan is strong enough to defeat Bootenks and since Base Gokhan [Potara] can do the same feat then it's is safe to assume that

Base Gokhan [Potara] ~ SSjin Gokhan [Metamorian] similarly, Base Vegito ~ SSjin Gogeta

As for Boo's statement on Goku and Vegeta's fusion, that's false since he was basing his prediction of the product of the kids who are quite inferior to their fathers.

 

[GSM123]

So Potara Gokhan ~ Vegerot? And i think Goku can be counting with SSJ2 for the fusion dance.

It was never contradicted, though. He actually has the Kids and Kamiccolo on him, so he should know how the fusion boost works.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I don't know about the comparison of Vegito and Gokhan but whether Goku was counting for SSjin/2/3 doesn't matter, the fact that he said SSjin is enough.

As for Boo's prediction, no it doesn't work that way. The product of fusion is something that the two individual can never achieve and we know that Goku and Vegeta are far stronger than the kids since not only they're 2x stronger in the same form but they more stronger forms at the top of it.

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”

SSjin3 Goku + SSjin2 Vegeta = Gogeta > SSjin Goten + SSjin Trunks = Gotenks

Moreover, since Boohan is just barely twice stronger than Gotenks then comparing him to Gogeta is laughable.

 

[GSM123]

True, though one can argue Goku is refering to the transformation in general. But i don't think Gohan can transform into SSJ2 at will anyway.

And how this changes the fact he can tell how strong Gogeta would be? Buuhan knows how many transformations Goku and Vegeta have, and if Goku can estimate a power's fusion without even fusing i'm pretty sure two a fusion itself can estimate another fusion's power.

Anyway, i think we are kind of missing the point here. Can Gogeta turn SSJ3 or not?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

If Gotenks can become a Super Saiyan 3 despite neither of the kids having anything beyond Super Saiyan, I'm sure Gogeta could become a Super Saiyan 3.

 

[ahill1]

If Gotenks can become a Super Saiyan 3 despite neither of the kids having anything beyond Super Saiyan, I'm sure Gogeta could become a Super Saiyan 3.

It seems Goku wasn't sure whether they could turn into SSJs after fusing, right? I take his question as him being unsure if transforming after they were already fused was possible or not, then Elder Kaioshin confirmed that transforming after fusing is also possible.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

True, though one can argue Goku is refering to the transformation in general. But i don't think Gohan can transform into SSJ2 at will anyway.

Gohan was able to turn into SSjin2 just fine during :bitch era

And how this changes the fact he can tell how strong Gogeta would be? Buuhan knows how many transformations Goku and Vegeta have, and if Goku can estimate a power's fusion without even fusing i'm pretty sure two a fusion itself can estimate another fusion's power.

Yet, he thought that he can beat Vegito then how did that go. It's just a typical villain does where they underestimate the heroes, just like Cell did to SSjin2 Gohan.

Anyway, i think we are kind of missing the point here. Can Gogeta turn SSJ3 or not?

Like EV said, also since Vegito can turn SSjin then why Gogeta can't do the same thing?

 

[GSM123]

If Gotenks can become a Super Saiyan 3 despite neither of the kids having anything beyond Super Saiyan, I'm sure Gogeta could become a Super Saiyan 3.

The kids trained a week in the Rosat, though. And it's heavily implied Gotenks can't turn SSJ after fused before the Rosat.

Gohan was able to turn into SSjin2 just fine during :bitch era

The scene was likely retconed, considering Goku still questions if Gohan has trained and Shin thinks Gohan wasn't at full power during the Budokai.

Yet, he thought that he can beat Vegito then how did that go. It's just a typical villain does where they underestimate the heroes, just like Cell did to SSjin2 Gohan.

Buuhan said this and was contradicted. He never was contradicted on his claim about Gogeta. Furthermore, Goku says there is no other way he and Vegeta can beat Buuhan, implying only Vegetto can stomp him:

Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P8.8
Context: Goku tries to get Vegeta to use the Potara with him, but Vegeta refuses
Goku: “Knowing you, I thought you might say that…! There ain’t any other way to beat Majin Boo!”

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

The scene was likely retconed, considering Goku still questions if Gohan has trained and Shin thinks Gohan wasn't at full power during the Budokai.

Nope, it wasn't. The reason why Goku still ask Gohan is to know Gohan's capabilities as we've seen before that standing ki =/= fighting ki and Goku is likely referring to Gohan's full power. Anyway, it doesn't change the fact that Goku can turn into SSjin to beyond which mean Gokhan can do it as well.

Buuhan said this and was contradicted. He never was contradicted on his claim about Gogeta.

How can Boo's statement be contradicted if Gogeta never had a chance to do it? Like I said, it's a typical villain thing where they mostly underestimate the heroes.

Furthermore, Goku says there is no other way he and Vegeta can beat Buuhan, implying only Vegetto can stomp him:

Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P8.8
Context: Goku tries to get Vegeta to use the Potara with him, but Vegeta refuses
Goku: “Knowing you, I thought you might say that…! There ain’t any other way to beat Majin Boo!”

Because the metamorian fusion is out of the table once Elder Kaioshin offered the Potara fusion and we know that its not because its weak but that Boo wouldn't let them fuse which made the Potara the only way to beat him.

 

[GSM123]

Nope, it wasn't. The reason why Goku still ask Gohan is to know Gohan's capabilities as we've seen before that standing ki =/= fighting ki and Goku is likely referring to Gohan's full power. Anyway, it doesn't change the fact that Goku can turn into SSjin to beyond which mean Gokhan can do it as well.

Vegeta could tell how shitty Gohan was only by sensing him, though. The kids could also turn SSJ but Gotenks couldn't before his BBQRoast.

How can Boo's statement be contradicted if Gogeta never had a chance to do it? Like I said, it's a typical villain thing where they mostly underestimate the heroes.

What's the point of the statement then? Why is Mr Toriyama putting Buuhan saying he's stronger than Gogeta but it's actually supposed to imply he's only being cocky but never directly show it? Gogeta has never done shit to prove himself, so no reason throw Buuhan's statement away and wank a completely featless Gogeta.

Because the metamorian fusion is out of the table once Elder Kaioshin offered the Potara fusion and we know that its not because its weak but that Boo wouldn't let them fuse which made the Potara the only way to beat him.

Then why Goku doesn't say there is no other way to beat Buu right know? The way he says it looks like Potara is the only solution in any scenario against Buuhan.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Vegeta could tell how shitty Gohan was only by sensing him, though. The kids could also turn SSJ but Gotenks couldn't before his BBQRoast.

He could tell how Gohan is so weak by sensing him yet he was surprised that Gohan is even more shit against Dabura.

Spoiler

[/img]

Gohan's SSjin2 wasn't retcon.

As for the kids, then its nothing really given that Vegito can turn SSjin easily for the first time with no training at all.

What's the point of the statement then? Why is Mr Toriyama putting Buuhan saying he's stronger than Gogeta but it's actually supposed to imply he's only being cocky but never directly show it? Gogeta has never done shit to prove himself, so no reason throw Buuhan's statement away and wank a completely featless Gogeta.

The point of the statement is to show Boo is cocky that's it. It's a simple story-telling. If this dude can't even tell someone stronger than him and its standing right there in front of him then what makes you think he can make an assumption if he can't even see the fact? I'll answer it for you, it's a villain thing to do where they're arrogant as fuck.

And since Gogeta is feat-less as you say then I have news for you

The manga showed us that Base Gokhan [Potara] ~ SSjin Gokhan [Metamorian] since both of them are capable of beating Bootenks then it is safe to assume that Base Vegito ~ SSjin Gogeta which leads to question that how strong is Vegito and that's another topic.

Then why Goku doesn't say there is no other way to beat Buu right know? The way he says it looks like Potara is the only solution in any scenario against Buuhan.

Look, Goku was also planning to use Vegito after they turn Boohan back to his normal form. What does that tell you? Does that mean that Vegito is the only way to beat Super Boo as well? Because IIRC, Gogeta can do the same but Vegito was the better option at that time.

Potara is the only solution once the metamorian fusion is off the table, simple as that.

 

[GSM123]

He could tell how Gohan is so weak by sensing him yet he was surprised that Gohan is even more shit against Dabura.

Spoiler

Gohan's SSjin2 wasn't retcon.

As for the kids, then its nothing really given that Vegito can turn SSjin easily for the first time with no training at all.

I don't see how this proves SSJ2 Gohan wasn't retconed, if anything this supports it. Goku already knows Gohan has been slacking off, but at Dabura he's surprised at how much he slacked off. It shows he really doesn't know how strong Teen Gohan is.

And Potara is a different and improved way of fusion, so it doesn't count. I'm talking about Metamoriam fusions here.

The point of the statement is to show Boo is cocky that's it. It's a simple story-telling. If this dude can't even tell someone stronger than him and its standing right there in front of him then what makes you think he can make an assumption if he can't even see the fact? I'll answer it for you, it's a villain thing to do where they're arrogant as fuck.

And since Gogeta is feat-less as you say then I have news for you

The manga showed us that Base Gokhan [Potara] ~ SSjin Gokhan [Metamorian] since both of them are capable of beating Bootenks then it is safe to assume that Base Vegito ~ SSjin Gogeta which leads to question that how strong is Vegito and that's another topic.

By a simple story-telling, what someone says should be true until contradicted. Why a simple story would have a statement that is supposed to be interpreted either way and confuse the readers?

Then why Goku doesn't say there is no other way to beat Buu right know? The way he says it looks like Potara is the only solution in any scenario against Buuhan.

Look, Goku was also planning to use Vegito after they turn Boohan back to his normal form. What does that tell you? Does that mean that Vegito is the only way to beat Super Boo as well? Because IIRC, Gogeta can do the same but Vegito was the better option at that time.

Potara is the only solution once the metamorian fusion is off the table, simple as that.
[/quote]

He doesn't label the potara as the only way to beat Buu though and even brings it up after Vegeta breaks the Potara.


You know, is really fucked up how Goku almost completely ignores the Fusion Dance for a eternal fusion. Perhaps he has a boner for fusing with Vegeta.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I don't see how this proves SSJ2 Gohan wasn't retconed, if anything this supports it. Goku already knows Gohan has been slacking off, but at Dabura he's surprised at how much he slacked off. It shows he really doesn't know how strong Teen Gohan is.

What? It proves that standing ki =/= fighting ki, hence why Vegeta and Goku were later surprised on Gohan's performance against Dabura despite the fact that they already sensed him earlier.

And Potara is a different and improved way of fusion, so it doesn't count. I'm talking about Metamoriam fusions here.

You're wrong. Potara and metamorian fusion are both same type of fusion except its power boost and a different method, that's it. Are you telling me that Metamorian fusion removes an ability of a person? Seems to me this is just a desperation move from your part.

The fact that Vegito has no problem transforming into a SSjin is enough.

By a simple story-telling, what someone says should be true until contradicted. Why a simple story would have a statement that is supposed to be interpreted either way and confuse the readers?

Because later we saw Boo being arrogant for not able to see the difference between his power and Vegito and still thought he can beat him. What makes Boo so reliable on this stuff? If he can't tell someone is stronger than him then how do you expect him to make an assumption and take it seriously.

Gogeta never had a chance to disprove it, that's all. Until we see the fight then we can confirm that whether Boo was right or wrong but given his thoughts on SSjin Vegito, its likely that Boo was underestimating Gogeta.

He doesn't label the potara as the only way to beat Buu though and even brings it up after Vegeta breaks the Potara.

But the fact that he chose the Potara even though there's a better option still proves that Goku doesn't care about the metamorian just as Elder Kaioshin told him to.

You know, is really fucked up how Goku almost completely ignores the Fusion Dance for a eternal fusion. Perhaps he has a boner for fusing with Vegeta.

To be fair, Goku doesn't want Vegeta to return to after-life and if the Potara can do that then he'll risk it.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P8.1
Context: Goku points out that if he and Vegeta aren’t merged, Vegeta will have to return to the afterlife
Vegeta: “Hmph…That’s better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn’t be any need for us to merge anymore, right?”
Goku: “We can’t know that! There’s [no] guarantee that we’ll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!”
Note: when Goku finds the good Boo later, he calls him “the very first one of all”, so apparently that’s the form of Boo he means here too.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Even though Gotenks needed a week of training in the rosat to become Super Saiyan 3, they still pale in comparison to Goku and Vegeta in every way. What the kids needed to do to get that far wouldn't necessarily apply to Goku and Vegeta. Goten was actually surprised that they could find a level beyond Super Saiyan.

Something like this would logically be a lot harder for someone who's never experienced what it was like to go beyond Super Saiyan at any point. Goku experienced it in various ways, as did Vegeta. Goku simply having Super Saiyan 3 makes it more likely for Gogeta to have access to Super Saiyan 3 than not. Not like the kids tried too hard to become a Super Saiyan when they first merged, anyway. Gotenks just assumed his Base was enough to handle Fat Boo.

Goku and Piccolo wanted the kids to learn how to merge normally and in Super Saiyan probably because they thought the process of transforming was much different while merged. Goku had already thought merging as Super Saiyans was a tricky thing, so it makes sense that he'd assume transforming into one would be just as tricky. Either way, I doubt that same "restriction" would apply to Goku or Vegeta.

 

[GSM123]

What? It proves that standing ki =/= fighting ki, hence why Vegeta and Goku were later surprised on Gohan's performance against Dabura despite the fact that they already sensed him earlier.

It doesn't change the fact Goku asked if Gohan has been training despite sensing him earlier and being very well able to know the difference between Kid Gohan and Teen Gohan.

And Potara is a different and improved way of fusion, so it doesn't count. I'm talking about Metamoriam fusions here.

You're wrong. Potara and metamorian fusion are both same type of fusion except its power boost and a different method, that's it. Are you telling me that Metamorian fusion removes an ability of a person? Seems to me this is just a desperation move from your part.

The fact that Vegito has no problem transforming into a SSjin is enough.[/quote]

It's not a desperation. Gotenks, a Metamorian fusion, cannot turn into SSJ before training. Vegetto, a Potara fusion, can turn into SSJ. Seems a difference in ability for me.

Because later we saw Boo being arrogant for not able to see the difference between his power and Vegito and still thought he can beat him. What makes Boo so reliable on this stuff? If he can't tell someone is stronger than him then how do you expect him to make an assumption and take it seriously.

Gogeta never had a chance to disprove it, that's all. Until we see the fight then we can confirm that whether Boo was right or wrong but given his thoughts on SSjin Vegito, its likely that Boo was underestimating Gogeta.

Buuhan doesn't have a clue about Potara's existence and how it works, while he had a Metamorian fusion on him just now, he sure should reliable on estimating a fusion's power.

But the fact that he chose the Potara even though there's a better option still proves that Goku doesn't care about the metamorian just as Elder Kaioshin told him to.

Or like you said, he was willing to merge forever with Vegeta to prevent him of returning to the Other World. He doesn't seem to not care about Metamorian that much like you say when he suggests after Vegeta breaks the Potara.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

It doesn't change the fact Goku asked if Gohan has been training despite sensing him earlier and being very well able to know the difference between Kid Gohan and Teen Gohan.

What? Standing ki =/= Fighting ki, isn't that good evidence? There was no retcon, get over it.

It's not a desperation. Gotenks, a Metamorian fusion, cannot turn into SSJ before training. Vegetto, a Potara fusion, can turn into SSJ. Seems a difference in ability for me.

If anything, it proves that Gotenks is a dumb fighter that's all. Vegito proved it to be easy and there's no denying that Goku and Vegeta are just that genius compare to their sons. There's no argument here at all other than trying to make Gogeta look weak by desperation.

Buuhan doesn't have a clue about Potara's existence and how it works, while he had a Metamorian fusion on him just now, he sure should reliable on estimating a fusion's power.

So Buuhan can't even tell someone is stronger than him who is by the way standing there in front of him but his assumption are true because he said so? There's no argument here at all other than Boo is just arrogant just like the other villains before him. You should know by this now.

Or like you said, he was willing to merge forever with Vegeta to prevent him of returning to the Other World. He doesn't seem to not care about Metamorian that much like you say when he suggests after Vegeta breaks the Potara.

He later suggest the Metamorian because the Potara is gone, what are you trying to prove?

 

[Goku9001]

It's pretty clear that SSJ2 Gohan was retconned.

Vegeta knew immediately that Gohan slacked off at the Budokai yet before Gohan battled Dabura, Vegeta didn't give a resounding statement of Gohan having been rusty. Instead, he presumed that Gohan was rusty and it wasn't until Gohan fought that Vegeta had the same response as he did towards Gohan at the Budokai. Hell, Goku was completely oblivious to Gohan having slacked off and he sensed both the "Standing Ki" of Kid Gohan and the "Standing Ki" of Teen Gohan. For fuck sake, Goku has the deepest understanding of Gohan's power ever since the Frieza Saga ended. You'd think Goku would've been able to tell if Gohan was weaker or not.

Honestly though, the whole Standing Ki =/= Fighting Ki is a huge cop out. If what you're arguing is the case, then power levels would've shot up immediately when a fighter battled and that's non-existent in the manga. Regardless, both Goku and Vegeta sensed Gohan's Standing Ki at the Cell Games, so it doesn't matter either way.

 

[GSM123]

It's pretty clear that SSJ2 Gohan was retconned.

Vegeta knew immediately that Gohan slacked off at the Budokai yet before Gohan battled Dabura, Vegeta didn't give a resounding statement of Gohan having been rusty. Instead, he presumed that Gohan was rusty and it wasn't until Gohan fought that Vegeta had the same response as he did towards Gohan at the Budokai. Hell, Goku was completely oblivious to Gohan having slacked off and he sensed both the "Standing Ki" of Kid Gohan and the "Standing Ki" of Teen Gohan. For fuck sake, Goku has the deepest understanding of Gohan's power ever since the Frieza Saga ended. You'd think Goku would've been able to tell if Gohan was weaker or not.

Honestly though, the whole Standing Ki =/= Fighting Ki is a huge cop out. If what you're arguing is the case, then power levels would've shot up immediately when a fighter battled and that's non-existent in the manga. Regardless, both Goku and Vegeta sensed Gohan's Standing Ki at the Cell Games, so it doesn't matter either way.

About the matter of the topic, do you think Gogeta and Metamorian Gokhan transform after fused? Gotenks was heavily implied to not be able to, and the Kids are supposed to already be Mastered SSJs.

 

[Goku9001]

About the matter of the topic, do you think Gogeta and Metamorian Gokhan transform after fused? Gotenks was heavily implied to not be able to, and the Kids are supposed to already be Mastered SSJs.

I'd honestly like to believe so, but there's no concrete evidence support either side. After all, Goku and Vegeta have no experience with fusion, but at the same time, he managed to transform as Vegetto. I'm leaning towards yes which in that case, SSJ3 Gogeta is stronger than Buutenks, but weaker than Buuhan.