Toei SSJ3 Goku runs a Saint Seiya gauntlet

[Tapion]

How far does Goku go in Saint Seiya? This is a composite Toei version that includes both the movies, OVAs and the anime.

Bonus round, end of GT SSj4 Gogeta get to go at it instead.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

So, is this Z/Pre-God or Post-God SS3 Goku? That makes a lot of difference.

Also, what about character mindsets? That can make a huge difference when taking into account the hax most Saint Seiya characters have and Galu's trend of not going for the win immediately/letting his guard down.

 

[Tapion]

So, is this Z/Pre-God or Post-God SS3 Goku? That makes a lot of difference.

Also, what about character mindsets? That can make a huge difference when taking into account the hax most Saint Seiya characters have and Galu's trend of not going for the win immediately/letting his guard down.

Pre-God Goku, but keep in mind non canon Goku is way, way stronger and faster, hence why I chose him instead of canon Goku, who would get instantly destroyed.

Assume he's in character as far as personality goes, but in the end willing to kill if the opportunity comes.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

In that case, he'd have the speed to blitz anyone below the Winged 8th Sense Bronze Saints (minus Hecate, who's only Massively FTL+ in terms of flight speed). However, being Multi-Solar System level, he'd only be able to compete with those semi-relevant to Gold Saint tier. He'd probably lose to either Sorrento due to his sense manipulation or Niobe due to his poison, since he wouldn't be prepared for either and have no way of countering them once they hit. Assuming he were to take things entirely seriously and give no room for attack, he'd still get beaten by anyone with comparable stamina to a Gold Saint who can fight an equal opponent for up to 1,000 days, whereas Goku can barely do the same for more than a minute in SS3 (even if this is a dead Goku, his stamina would still be inferior).

As for EoGT SS4 Gogeta, he logically shouldn't be any stronger than his Beyond Limits self since Goku would need to lower his power to fuse anyway and trying to assume a hypothetical level this Gogeta could be at is arbitrary. So, low end Multi-Galaxy level with Massively FTL speed and possibly immunity to regular attacks if going by the interview statement. I'll assume this is removing the fusion time limit, since that's highly unfair. His stats allow him to get up to Gemini Saga/Kanon, but their superior stamina and durability to take his attacks and dish out equally powerful ones with Galaxian Explosion would keep him from getting further with them likely managing to trap him in Another Dimension/Golden Triangle eventually. Even if he beats them, he'd lose to their 8th Sense versions due to them gaining soul manipulation to effectively counter the implied intangibility and generally being significantly stronger than before.He may even lose to Aquarius Camus before hand if Camus prepares accordingly and surrounds himself in absolute zero ice to effectively make himself untouchable to Gogeta.

 

[Tapion]

Multi Solar System level is more like Toei Freeza, actually, since the Namek explosion was portrayed as hundreds, if not thousands of light years wide.

And, well, Broly destroyed a fraction of the South Galaxy while he was being restrained by Paragus. And Hatchiyack, who is on par with FP LSSj Broly, was shown warping and messing with nebulaes all over the North Galaxy as soon as he was born, which was followed with King Kai stating his power was so huge he might as well spell the North Galaxy's end. Multi Solar System is a grievous low end. Take the following feats into account:

1. Toei Goku shook the entirety of the Other World (which is, of course, universal in size) when he powered up against Janemba.

2. Janemba warped the entirety of the Other World as soon as he was born.

3. Gohan-Boo (who in Toeiland is weaker than Pure Boo)'s Vice Shout was tearing the living world apart and gradually creating distortions that were going to quickly destroy the entire universe.

4. A suppressed Pure Boo was stated (and shown) on Shin's flashback to have destroyed several galaxies during his rampages

5. Pure Boo created an energy ball that was going to destroy the Grand Kai's world, which is visible and orbits next to Heaven - a planet that is stated in the Daizenshuu to be as big as the living world itself.

6. Elder Kaioshin stated that Beerus used to be weaker than Gotenks Boo back when he sealed him in the Z Sword; that same weak version of Beerus was still stated by Toriyama to be able to destroy the entirety of the Kaioshin Realm, which is about one fifth of Universe 7's size and thus multi galactic

For Gogeta, consider that he instantaneously purified Yi Xing Long's Negative Karma Ball, which possessed enough spread-out energy to gradually destroy the entire universe. That's probably a Universe level feat, since the entirety, non-spreadout condensed energy was Universal and Gogeta instantly overrode it.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Multi Solar System level is more like Toei Freeza, actually, since the Namek explosion was portrayed as hundreds, if not thousands of light years wide.

And, well, Broly destroyed a fraction of the South Galaxy while he was being restrained by Paragus. And Hatchiyack, who is on par with FP LSSj Broly, was shown warping and messing with nebulaes all over the North Galaxy as soon as he was born, which was followed with King Kai stating his power was so huge he might as well spell the North Galaxy's end. Multi Solar System is a grievous low end. Take the following feats into account:

The difference between the low end of Solar System level and the high end of Multi-Solar System level is at least trillions times wide and battle powers aren't a linear judgement of energy output, so scaling wouldn't be a strong argument in those situations.
Kaio's statement is no different from Goku stating the entire Universe would be destroyed/be in danger if he didn't defeat Freeza.

1. Toei Goku shook the entirety of the Other World (which is, of course, universal in size) when he powered up against Janemba.

We aren't given much of an accurate scale on Otherworld's size, beyond the Kaioshinkai making up 10% of the DB Macroverse, plus shaking/disruption feats generally aren't the most solid when considering Solar System level characters such as manga SS3 Gotenks and Evil Boo can still make holes in space-time.

2. Janemba warped the entirety of the Other World as soon as he was born.

This could easily be considered part of his reality warping ability rather than actual power, so I'd say that's questionable.

3. Gohan-Boo (who in Toeiland is weaker than Pure Boo)'s Vice Shout was tearing the living world apart and gradually creating distortions that were going to quickly destroy the entire universe.

Vegetto states that "the universe would be crushed by multiple dimensions!", which is a fair bit different from saying it'd be done by Boo's power outright which was just creating the cracks to allow it. In principle, it's the same as saying a construction worker is a building buster for being the one to pull the trigger on the vehicle or explosives demolishing it.

4. A suppressed Pure Boo was stated (and shown) on Shin's flashback to have destroyed several galaxies during his rampages

The feat shown in the anime shows their gradual destruction, being little different from M8 Broly's feat, still being Multi-Solar System level.

5. Pure Boo created an energy ball that was going to destroy the Grand Kai's world, which is visible and orbits next to Heaven - a planet that is stated in the Daizenshuu to be as big as the living world itself.

This part is actually interesting. Do you have a link for the statement.

If that were the case, I would consider Composite Toei SS3 Goku Universe level, in which case he gets up to the Winged 8th Sense Bronze Saints before getting stomped due to speedblitz and soul manipulation.

For Gogeta, consider that he instantaneously purified Yi Xing Long's Negative Karma Ball, which possessed enough spread-out energy to gradually destroy the entire universe. That's probably a Universe level feat, since the entirety, non-spreadout condensed energy was Universal and Gogeta instantly overrode it.

The key word there is gradually, implying it would take a lot of time for the entire universe to be corroded, thus being via chain reaction as well as likely being from Liang Xing Long's pollution ability.

Unless this is a Composite Gogeta, since the Pure Boo feat definitely seems like an outlier compared to GT feats (and GT scaling from Toei's Boo Arc is a questionable topic in the first place given SSJ Vegetto > SS3 Baby Arc Goku >>> Base Baby Arc Goku > Pure Boo/Gohan Boo, but that's a can of worms on its own), then SS4 Gogeta and Super Yi Xing Long at best get low end Multi-Galaxy scaling from Popo's story of how several Galaxies were destroyed by an Evil Dragon in the distant past, reinforced by BT3 stating base Yi Xing Long can destroy a galaxy instantly.

 

[Tapion]

The difference between the low end of Solar System level and the high end of Multi-Solar System level is at least trillions times wide and battle powers aren't a linear judgement of energy output, so scaling wouldn't be a strong argument in those situations.

...And since when have I ever tried to scale? I'm just proving that the Freeza multi solar system feat I mentioned isn't an outlier by showing that a restrained Broly, who had trouble beating back a version of Base Goku that is at most on par with the Androids, could do the same. Likewise, Hatchiyack warped most of the Northern Galaxy with his mere presence and while his ki was still increasing, which is extremely casual and way better than the aforementioned feats, showing how even mid tiers have feats on this level.

About King Kai, context matters. King Kai's statement was a follow up to a scene where Hatchiyack is shown warping several nebulae across the Northern Galaxy, while he was still being formed. Immediately after we see this, King Kai states Hatchiyack would spell the end of the Northern Galaxy.

Goku's statement referred to the universe being enslaved by Freeza, and not him destroying it. Unlike Cell, who after his zenkai decided to go beyond Dr. Gero's plans and use IT to threaten all planets in the universe, Freeza had no reason to go around destroying everything. This comparison doesn't work out at all.

We aren't given much of an accurate scale on Otherworld's size, beyond the Kaioshinkai making up 10% of the DB Macroverse, plus shaking/disruption feats generally aren't the most solid when considering Solar System level characters such as manga SS3 Gotenks and Evil Boo can still make holes in space-time.

1. The Other World is the entire upper half of the Macroverse, whereas the lower half is split in two: the Demon Realm and the Living World. Considering Heaven by itself is already the size of the living world, then the Other World is actually considerably bigger than the universe itself.

This could easily be considered part of his reality warping ability rather than actual power, so I'd say that's questionable.

2. What do Gotenks and Super Boo's small space time holes have to do with anything at all? I'm talking about quakes. Causing tremors is a quantifiable energy feat, doing so on a universal scale is anywhere from galactic+ to multi-galactic in energy output. And it was done with excess ki alone.

This could easily be considered part of his reality warping ability rather than actual power, so I'd say that's questionable.

The Daizenshuu classifies what he did to Enma, which is pretty much what he did to the rest of the Other World, as an energy barrier. It even has the same ability to absorb weaker attacks that Fat Janemba's own hide has, so it's an extension of his raw energy. It definitely scales.

Vegetto states that "the universe would be crushed by multiple dimensions!", which is a fair bit different from saying it'd be done by Boo's power outright which was just creating the cracks to allow it. In principle, it's the same as saying a construction worker is a building buster for being the one to pull the trigger on the vehicle or explosives demolishing it.

The Daizenshuu elaborates on the feat, saying Gohan-Boo was expanding the distorted space, which would have eventually covered the entirety of the living world and obliterated the universe. Going by the fact that Vegito says "it was close" when he stops it, it was clearly going to be done extremely soon. That's easily multi galactic in scale.

Likewise, after Vegito stops the Vice Shout, he compliments Gohan Boo, saying he sure had awesome power and that he should use that exact same energy he wielded to try and hit him. Therefore, it's a legitimate feat from Boo's part.

The feat shown in the anime shows their gradual destruction, being little different from M8 Broly's feat, still being Multi-Solar System level.

1. The feat in the anime only shows one galaxy getting destroyed, but that's just a general portrayal of what he did. It's stated that Boo destroyed hundreds of planets, AND entire galaxies. Therefore, him destroying planets and him destroying galaxies are separate things that he did.Depending on whether he felt like it or not, he either destroyed a few planets or obliterated several solar systems at once.

The Dragon Ball Kai website posted a clip of that exact same scene, and the caption under the clip states that Boo had nearly destroyed the universe the last time he rampaged.

That makes no sense if the destruction was limited to a single galaxy.

2. Lastly, Pure Boo did that feat while suppressed, as indicated by the fact that he goes around on a planet destroying spree after his revival on Earth, exactly as he was stated to have done when the Kaioshins assembled to try and stop him, and Goku is shown fighting him as a mere Super Saiyan 2. Even if we were to take the visual at face value and assume he only destroyed one galaxy, he was holding back plenty of power.

This part is actually interesting. Do you have a link for the statement.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11502

Heaven
Area: Afterlife
Special Characteristics: The world where dead good people reside.
Events: Goku practiced for the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai here. (Daizenshuu 4, p.73/ Daizenshuu 7, p.36)
Anime: Those sorted out as good people among the dead gather here. It is about as wide as the universe, and its entire surface is a field of flowers.

Videl also says the same thing in the Dabura filler.

Grand Kai's planet, which Pure Boo was going to instantly destroy with his ki blast before he sensed Goku and Vegeta's kis, directly orbits Heaven and is visible next to it, therefore this is a multi galactic feat for Kid Boo.

The key word there is gradually, implying it would take a lot of time for the entire universe to be corroded, thus being via chain reaction as well as likely being from Liang Xing Long's pollution ability.

You didn't get my point. Sure, it'd be gradual and slow, however, all of that gradual energy originates from the same source - the Negative Karma Ball. Yi Xing Long threw it at Gogeta, who instantly purified ALL the energy inside that same ball, which had the condensed energy to destroy the universe.

Lastly, Yi Xing Long''s feat of destroying galaxies wasn't low end. It was stated that he instantly destroyed all the galaxies surrounding his home world. That suggests he destroyed a cluster of galaxies, not just a couple.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Goku's statement referred to the universe being enslaved by Freeza, and not him destroying it. Unlike Cell, who after his zenkai decided to go beyond Dr. Gero's plans and use IT to threaten all planets in the universe, Freeza had no reason to go around destroying everything. This comparison doesn't work out at all.

Anime-wise, that's debatable, since the Steve Simmons translation translates it as "destroyed" and the term used definitely doesn't translate to "enslaved" and this is relevant if we're talking about the anime. Also, Goku isn't really too aware of Freeza's personality and only knows he's strong, evil and destroys planets, so Goku's impression of him being a planet destroying maniac could fit well with his limited knowledge.

2. What do Gotenks and Super Boo's small space time holes have to do with anything at all? I'm talking about quakes. Causing tremors is a quantifiable energy feat, doing so on a universal scale is anywhere from galactic+ to multi-galactic in energy output. And it was done with excess ki alone.

I just found this: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Kepekley23/Dragon_Ball:_Goku_Shakes_the_Afterlife

So the feat is indeed Galaxy level, though likely no higher.

The Daizenshuu elaborates on the feat, saying Gohan-Boo was expanding the distorted space, which would have eventually covered the entirety of the living world and obliterated the universe. Going by the fact that Vegito says "it was close" when he stops it, it was clearly going to be done extremely soon. That's easily multi galactic in scale.

Likewise, after Vegito stops the Vice Shout, he compliments Gohan Boo, saying he sure had awesome power and that he should use that exact same energy he wielded to try and hit him. Therefore, it's a legitimate feat from Boo's part.

Ah, fair enough. I wasn't aware of the statement. I wouldn't say Vegetto's compliment directly reinforces it, since it was clear he required effort so Multi-Galaxy or not, he'd make the statement regardless.

The feat shown in the anime shows their gradual destruction, being little different from M8 Broly's feat, still being Multi-Solar System level.

The Dragon Ball Kai website posted a clip of that exact same scene, and the caption under the clip states that Boo had nearly destroyed the universe the last time he rampaged: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/b/bb/038c09cd-e5cf-407d-8fda-f86b94fb2ae2.png/revision/latest?cb=20160424230730

That makes no sense if the destruction was limited to a single galaxy.

I never argued he only destroyed one, just that as the feat implies, it wasn't instantaneous galaxy busting.

2. Lastly, Pure Boo did that feat while suppressed, as indicated by the fact that he goes around on a planet destroying spree after his revival on Earth, exactly as he was stated to have done when the Kaioshins assembled to try and stop him, and Goku is shown fighting him as a mere Super Saiyan 2. Even if we were to take the visual at face value and assume he only destroyed one galaxy, he was holding back plenty of power.

Powerscaling wouldn't get him to a completely different tier though.

However, with all that, you've convinced me that Composite Toei Goku is indeed at least Multi-Galaxy+ level. In that case, what I said in my previous post about how far he'd get in the Saint Seiya verse would be my solid answer for this topic.

You didn't get my point. Sure, it'd be gradual and slow, however, all of that gradual energy originates from the same source - the Negative Karma Ball. Yi Xing Long threw it at Gogeta, who instantly purified ALL the energy inside that same ball, which had the condensed energy to destroy the universe.

I got your point, but I still have my disagreements with it. After all, the Minus Energy corrosion is likely the ability inherited from Liang Xing Long, who's pollution certainly wasn't something that could be condensed down or even really be attributed to his level of power.

Lastly, Yi Xing Long''s feat of destroying galaxies wasn't low end. It was stated that he instantly destroyed all the galaxies surrounding his home world. That suggests he destroyed a cluster of galaxies, not just a couple.

That's still quite questionable, considering we never saw the feat and destroying all the galaxies around it is still somewhat vague without an actual image, especially considering Popo's basic speech pattern.

 

[Tapion]

Fixed that DB Kai broken link I posted.

As far as speed goes, however, Goku's best feats and scaling are at most in the trillions to quadrillions of times FTL (going by the Other World Arc, where he traveled half of the Other World in a couple minutes), while the Saint Seiya's cast best feats include surpassing the speed of the Big Bang's expansion and exchanging blows from several universes of distance, all of which are in the quintillions to sextillions.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

As far as speed goes, however, Goku's best feats and scaling are at most in the trillions to quadrillions of times FTL (going by the Other World Arc, where he traveled half of the Other World in a couple minutes), while the Saint Seiya's cast best feats include surpassing the speed of the Big Bang's expansion and exchanging blows from several universes of distance, all of which are in the quintillions to sextillions.

Hence why I only said he'd get up to the Winged 8th Sense Bronze Saints, who are the weakest/slowest characters capable of these hyperbolic speed feats (traversed a universe sized space in a matter of minutes). You could technically argue Capricorn Shura with Athena's Ichor and a Miracle was the weakest of this tier (the one who surpassed the Big Bang's expansion), but that speed feat is obviously greater and he has the same soul manipulation hax as they do.

 

[SIAD]

What is this TOEI Goku SSJ3 Compound?

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Good debate from both of ya. I always enjoy reading this kind of stuff how the DB fighters capable of destroying.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

What is this TOEI Goku SSJ3 Compound?

Composite in this context means taking into account all of a characters' feats and abilities, including outliers, in order to create a peak version of them.

Normally, Toei SS3 Goku would just be considered Multi-Solar System level, but with his outlier Galaxy level feat from Fusion Reborn and scaling from Gohan Boo's Vice Shout filler, he'd end up as Multi-Galaxy+ level when taking them into account.

 

[SIAD]

What is this TOEI Goku SSJ3 Compound?

Composite in this context means taking into account all of a characters' feats and abilities, including outliers, in order to create a peak version of them.

Normally, Toei SS3 Goku would just be considered Multi-Solar System level, but with his outlier Galaxy level feat from Fusion Reborn and scaling from Gohan Boo's Vice Shout filler, he'd end up as Multi-Galaxy+ level when taking them into account.

I understand, then Goku SSJ3 obviously is Multi level Solar System.

  If we talk about Goku SSJ3 Compound would be Multi-level Galaxy +, or would be even more powerful than it is Omega Yi Xing Long and probably Gogeta SSJ4.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I understand, then Goku SSJ3 obviously is Multi level Solar System.

Toei SS3 Goku is. Manga SS3 Goku is just Solar System level.

If we talk about Goku SSJ3 Compound would be Multi-level Galaxy +, or would be even more powerful than it is Omega Yi Xing Long and probably Gogeta SSJ4.

It would be stronger than those two, since Gogeta and Yi Xing Long are just suggested to be Multi-Galaxy level, capable of destroying only several galaxies or so.

 

[Tapion]

By composite I meant Toei Goku as a whole, including the OVAs, movies alongside the anime, not his outliers.

Multi Galaxy isn't an outlier considering there are like...5 feats on that level in the Boo Arc.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Multi Galaxy isn't an outlier considering there are like...5 feats on that level in the Boo Arc.

Not within the vacuum of the Boo Arc, but when brought into the scope of Toei's continuity, it becomes hazy to take it into account as consistent. After all, none of GT's feats or statements quite measure up to it with a Multi-Galaxy feat of a far less impressive nature being treat as far more impressive overall. That, and supplementary material only refer to Yi Xing Long's base form as Galaxy level.

As for Super, of which the anime should follow Kai's continuity, things get a lot more difficult to take it into account as consistent with Toei's overall continuity when considering Beerus and Whis treat Solar System busting in a manner as if it even meant anything to the main cast, which would hardly be the case if Enraged Vegeta ought to be Multi-Galaxy+ level via-scaling if taking into account Boo's Vice Shout.

 

[Tapion]

Multi Galaxy isn't an outlier considering there are like...5 feats on that level in the Boo Arc.

Not within the vacuum of the Boo Arc, but when brought into the scope of Toei's continuity, it becomes hazy to take it into account as consistent. After all, none of GT's feats or statements quite measure up to it with a Multi-Galaxy feat of a far less impressive nature being treat as far more impressive overall. That, and supplementary material only refer to Yi Xing Long's base form as Galaxy level.

As for Super, of which the anime should follow Kai's continuity, things get a lot more difficult to take it into account as consistent with Toei's overall continuity when considering Beerus and Whis treat Solar System busting in a manner as if it even meant anything to the main cast, which would hardly be the case if Enraged Vegeta ought to be Multi-Galaxy+ level via-scaling if taking into account Boo's Vice Shout.

In the original manga, you'll find out that Pure Boo destroying the Earth is considered impressive and outrageous despite the countless statements from vastly weaker people who could do the same, as far back as the Saiyan Arc, as well as Freeza, who actually destroys a x10 gravity planet instantly, a feat that is comparable to destroying dwarf stars.

It's not the destructive capacity that is impressive, it is the destructive implication. Aka the horror that settles in when you realize an entire race has disappeared in an instant and that Pure Boo will destroy the entire universe extremely quickly, world by world, if Goku and Vegeta loses.

1. Mr. Popo's statement is that the last time the Evil Dragon appeared, he destroyed a planet and all the galaxies surrounding that planet instantly. This is half meant to illustrate Yi Xing Long's power and half meant to show the threat he poses, so it's the only one that is arguable, in my view.

2. The GT Perfect Files also state that the purpose of the Dragons is to destroy the entire galaxy, so when they state that Yi Xing Long is endowed with energy that can take out galaxies, that isn't meant to show any sort of limit to his power. It's just a callback.

 

[Tapion]

Also, I still strongly maintain that Super Gogeta 4's energy output is Universal.

Gogeta instantly purified the entirety of the energy contained inside the Negative Karma Ball, which works by emitting pockets of energy off to gradually corrupt planets, until the entire universe is wiped out. All of that energy comes from the same source, it is just emitted gradually. However, Gogeta overrode and converted all of the source energy, making his energy output Universal.

To better explain my point of view, imagine that the energy required to destroy the universe is 1,000,000, and the Negative Karma Ball only emits 1 point of energy at a time. However, after some time, the Negative Karma Ball will have emitted all of the 1,000,000 points without having had its source fully depleted. That means the condensed energy inside it is 1,000,000 (aka universe destroying), it's just spread out over a long time.

However, Gogeta converted all 1,000,000 points, all the energy at once and instantaneously. Therefore, he overrode enough energy to destroy the universe.

 

[SIAD]

Also, I still strongly maintain that Super Gogeta 4's energy output is Universal.

Gogeta instantly purified the entirety of the energy contained inside the Negative Karma Ball, which works by emitting pockets of energy off to gradually corrupt planets, until the entire universe is wiped out. All of that energy comes from the same source, it is just emitted gradually. However, Gogeta overrode and converted all of the source energy, making his energy output Universal.

To better explain my point of view, imagine that the energy required to destroy the universe is 1,000,000, and the Negative Karma Ball only emits 1 point of energy at a time. However, after some time, the Negative Karma Ball will have emitted all of the 1,000,000 points without having had its source fully depleted. That means the condensed energy inside it is 1,000,000 (aka universe destroying), it's just spread out over a long time.

However, Gogeta converted all 1,000,000 points, all the energy at once and instantaneously. Therefore, he overrode enough energy to destroy the universe.

Excellent point, so Gogeta SSJ4 is a Destroyer of the Universe.

The only thing that makes me doubt, is that in a game Beerus is shown as stronger than Gogeta SSJ4. That Beerus was that of the first Movies (before the appearance of DBS), which was not yet at the Universe Level.

Gogeta SSJ4 must be at least in the Small Universe Level.