Vegeta SSJBE (Post Yadart) vs UI Sing Goku (ToP)
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I'm guessing Goku can use UI Sign indefinitely in this scenario? If so, I'd give it to Goku. Not only should he have better reactions, but I wouldn't say there's any definite proof of UI Sign Goku getting stronger between arcs and Moro's attitude suggests Vegeta's raw power was still a step behind UI Sign Goku.
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What is the numerical gap between the UI over the Sing UI in both the ToP and the Arc Moro?
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I'm not sure about this one. The suppressed version of Sign that Goku used was enough to warrant comments such as "what kind of hellish training did he undergo" and "well done for training Goku to this extent". I'd say his suppressed Sign was at least as strong as it was during the ToP. Moro then powered up and was shown to be substantially above suppressed Sign Goku. SSJBE Vegeta fought this version of Moro and managed better than suppressed Sign Goku was able to imo.
Vegeta was able to push back Moro as well as take his attacks without taking damage, and this was before Moro had noticeable energy loss. Suppressed Sign Goku was immediately knocked out of Sign because there was a clear gap in power.
I'd have to take Vegeta in this fight going by this. I think he's somewhat stronger than ToP Sign Goku and doesn't have to deal with the extreme instability/stamina loss of Sign.
Vegeta was able to push back Moro as well as take his attacks without taking damage, and this was before Moro had noticeable energy loss. Suppressed Sign Goku was immediately knocked out of Sign because there was a clear gap in power.
I'd have to take Vegeta in this fight going by this. I think he's somewhat stronger than ToP Sign Goku and doesn't have to deal with the extreme instability/stamina loss of Sign.
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I also have slightly superior to Vegeta SSJBE (Post Yadart).
I think UI Sign Goku (Arc Moro) is a bit stronger than in the ToP, due to your statements. Also Vegeta with his technique believed that he could defeat someone who defeated Goku, even though Vegeta knew that Goku had used the UI or Sing UI state. Therefore I don't think UI Goku (ToP) is tremendously superior to Vegeta SSJBE (Post Yadart).
Furthermore I doubt that Vegeta SSJBE (Post Yadart) is massively inferior to Broly LSSJ, as the former is currently superior to the latter and it is not suggested that Vegeta has increased his power very massively between the End of the Arc Moro and the Present Day.
I think UI Sign Goku (Arc Moro) is a bit stronger than in the ToP, due to your statements. Also Vegeta with his technique believed that he could defeat someone who defeated Goku, even though Vegeta knew that Goku had used the UI or Sing UI state. Therefore I don't think UI Goku (ToP) is tremendously superior to Vegeta SSJBE (Post Yadart).
Furthermore I doubt that Vegeta SSJBE (Post Yadart) is massively inferior to Broly LSSJ, as the former is currently superior to the latter and it is not suggested that Vegeta has increased his power very massively between the End of the Arc Moro and the Present Day.
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Doesn't Whis even say that Goku/Vegeta were the strongest people he knew in the Granola arc? And this was before they began the significant part of their training.
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Could've been in reference to him being able to activate UI Sign at will and maintain it easily rather than with raw power, considering how he could only initially hold it for a few seconds and even his later usage of both UI variants lasted maybe a minute at best combined.
Keep in mind that Moro scoffed at Vegeta's power and didn't make note of him being stronger than expected, instead wondering why he could do so much damage, so Moro was likely toying with Vegeta even more so than he had Galu before he started feeling the effects of Spirit Fission.
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The way that Piccolo initially went from saying they had no idea if Goku was stronger or not to asking what kind of hellish training Galu underwent tells me that he believes he became stronger. Piccolo and Gohan already showed excitement over Goku being able to activate Sign at will.
So to be further impressed after questioning if Goku became stronger should be a pretty clear indicator. Whis congratulating Merus on training Goku so well only backs this notion up. Regardless, given that we learn that the more stable the UI, the more powerful it becomes, that alone should prove that Goku became more powerful. He had far greater control over Sign than at the ToP. His suppressed version being equal to his ToP self is the bare minimum of where he should be.
Also Moro gave Vegeta's power up plenty of praise. Piccolo called him unrecognizable.
Ch. 61, pg. 3.5
Moro: “Yes, you have gained a considerable amount of power. Yet you’re still not able to contend with me.”
Ch. 61, pg. 4.3
Context: Vegeta continues attacking Moro
Piccolo: “Vegeta has gotten stronger. I barely recognize him! But Moro is still more powerful than him. It’s a level that can’t be overcome with training alone…”
Ch. 61, pg. 6.1-4
Moro: “I do commend you for elevating your power to such heights. [ ] You will make for my finest meal yet.”
So to be further impressed after questioning if Goku became stronger should be a pretty clear indicator. Whis congratulating Merus on training Goku so well only backs this notion up. Regardless, given that we learn that the more stable the UI, the more powerful it becomes, that alone should prove that Goku became more powerful. He had far greater control over Sign than at the ToP. His suppressed version being equal to his ToP self is the bare minimum of where he should be.
Also Moro gave Vegeta's power up plenty of praise. Piccolo called him unrecognizable.
Ch. 61, pg. 3.5
Moro: “Yes, you have gained a considerable amount of power. Yet you’re still not able to contend with me.”
Ch. 61, pg. 4.3
Context: Vegeta continues attacking Moro
Piccolo: “Vegeta has gotten stronger. I barely recognize him! But Moro is still more powerful than him. It’s a level that can’t be overcome with training alone…”
Ch. 61, pg. 6.1-4
Moro: “I do commend you for elevating your power to such heights. [ ] You will make for my finest meal yet.”
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So are we just going to ignore this?
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The option that I see possible is that even Moro (FP) = UI Sign Goku (FP against Moro) >>> Vegeta SSJBE (Post Yadart)> = UI Sing Goku (Initial against Moro) ~ UI Sign Goku (ToP).
The only big problem I have with that theory, is that I would have Beerus as 10x Vermoud and I don't think that's the case.
The only big problem I have with that theory, is that I would have Beerus as 10x Vermoud and I don't think that's the case.
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Beerus has been training in secret after the ToP in order to keep his position.
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Because we would have this string:
Beerus> Granolah> UI Goku (Current)> UI Moro >>> Moro (OG73I)> Broly LSSJ> Moro (FP) >>> Vegeta SSJBE (Post Yadart)> UI Goku (ToP)> = Jiren (Beyond Limits)> > Jiren (FP)> Vermoud.
I also like the theory that Beerus trains in secret. Perhaps there is a lot of difference between the stronger Hakaishins over the less strong Hakaishins and some have special attacks.
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Seeing how quickly Goku and Vegeta are implied to have powered up in the Granola arc, it's plausible that Beerus has also made large gains of his own. It's a little bit ridiculous that he's always shown lounging around but we are forced to assume he is powering up somehow.
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Until there's a statement or even an implication of that, I'm not going to assume it. Over-complicating things isn't my style. I'm built different.
That said, the overwhelming majority of the evidence points to Vegeta stuffing his cock down Goku's throat here. He's the second strongest mortal in Universe 7 by now, surpassing SSJFP Broly, who was likely on par or stronger than ToP UI Goku. I don't think he's improved that much since training on Yardrat either. I also agree with Super Curt's argument for current UI Sign Gokes.
SSBE Vegeta >>> UI Goku (ToP), in my biased opinion.
That said, the overwhelming majority of the evidence points to Vegeta stuffing his cock down Goku's throat here. He's the second strongest mortal in Universe 7 by now, surpassing SSJFP Broly, who was likely on par or stronger than ToP UI Goku. I don't think he's improved that much since training on Yardrat either. I also agree with Super Curt's argument for current UI Sign Gokes.
SSBE Vegeta >>> UI Goku (ToP), in my biased opinion.
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At least what we know is that Vegeta SSJBE (Post Yadart) believed that with his division technique he could defeat someone who was not a shooting material for UI Goku (ToP).
Perfectly Moro being inferior (not too inferior) to UI Goku (ToP) could have survived Goku's blows, until Goku lost UI status. Vegeta not being too inferior to that version of Moro, he thought that with his technique to divide, he could defeat him.
That is the minimum level where Vegeta SSJBE (Post Yadart) can be placed.
Perfectly Moro being inferior (not too inferior) to UI Goku (ToP) could have survived Goku's blows, until Goku lost UI status. Vegeta not being too inferior to that version of Moro, he thought that with his technique to divide, he could defeat him.
That is the minimum level where Vegeta SSJBE (Post Yadart) can be placed.
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Vegeta is stated to be stronger than Omen during the Moro arc so I’m not sure why this is worth a debate.
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