Venato's GT/Super Chain

[Keedounan]

I'll try out a comparison while ignoring destruction feats. The one who will be used as a measuring stick is Goku. Why him ? If there is a character which can tell you how haxxed characters are, it's him.

Let's begin with GT. I don't remember much from this series, but it's enough.

I)GT

In baby arc, it's made clear that Base Goku is above Boohan, by overpowering Rildo, then defeating SSJ Gohan (GT). However, it's not until he uses SSJ4 that he is able to surpass Vegetto (Boo arc).

In Super 17 arc, SSJ Goku outperforms everyone against Super 17, including Super Oob, who himself outperformed SSJ3 Goku (Baby arc) against Super Baby 2. This should make him stronger than Super Baby 2, effectively surpassing at least SSJ Vegetto (Boo arc). And of course, he is much stronger as SSJ4.

In Shadow Dragons arc, the hax seems to have calmed down, although SSJ4 Goku (beyond limits) is more effective than his previous Kamehameha x10 against Syn Shenron. That would make his SSJ4 form over ten times stronger than before.

Now, let's move to Super:

Super

Keep in mind that Anime is what I'm talking about right now.

In BoG arc, Goku starts out mild by being weaker than Freeza in base form. However, at the end of the arc, he somehow absorbed his SSJG power, effectively making him much stronger than Vegetto (BoG arc) as SSJ.

In RoF arc, the haxx is taken up to eleven: Goku (BoG arc) surpass his previous SSJG power in base form. Also, he unlocks the SSJB, which is essentially the Super Saiyan form of the SSJG.

In Champa arc, the haxx calms down, but we discover that Goku has access to the KKx10.

In Black arc, it's apparently stated that Goku Black is stronger than several fighters that appeared in Super (Beerus excluded), which include Hit, suggesting that Goku has surpassed his previous KKx10 power. This point is verified in Hit arc, in which he effectively manage to fight an unrestricted Hit without using Kaioken in the whole fight.

At the beginning of the Universe Survival Arc, however, he apparently became a little rusty due to doing his job more often than fighting and training (guess who forced him to do that). However, since he is going to train hard for the tournament and fighting powerful opponents, you can bet that he will get crazy power-ups, possibly a new transformation. Right now, I bet on Super Saiyan Rainbow

Comparison

A stronger Vegetto than the one back in Boo arc was made in Super. First, Goku and Vegeta were more powerful in BoG even before they got the godly ki.

Moreover, while Super Baby 1 was the strongest Saiyan ever felt at this point, there was still reasonable arguments for why Vegetto (Boo arc) could win with higher forms (SSJ2 and possibly SSJ3), at least until Oozaru Baby.

However, it was made clear that even at his strongest, Vegetto couldn't win against Beerus, even before the latter increased his power (to put it in perspective, Goku actually thought an enraged Vegeta could push Beerus to use his full power...not even close ). And Base Goku (RoF) is much more powerful than that !

Now for the transformations, with the SSJ4, Goku has gone from unable to scratch Baby's weakest form to being able to fight evenly with his strongest form. No matter how you look at it, it's definitely a great boost.

As for the SSJB, there isn't much showing in its favor after Goku absorbed the SSJG boost. While Vegeta one-shotted Kyabe with his SSJB, he could have replicated this feat as a SSJ2. That said, it's still treated as a completely different world from the normal transformations almost every time it's used. Plus, its power is described as the Super Saiyan form of the Super Saiyan God. The boost should be quite powerful. I'd say that SSJB = SSJ4 in terms of boost, then.

Chain

Here is my chain:

Merged Zamasu ~ SSJB Vegetto > SSJ4 Gogeta > SSJR Goku Black > SSJB Goku (Black arc) = Hit ~ Omega Shenron > KKx10 SSJB Goku ~ SSJ4 Goku (Beyond Limits) = SSJ4 Vegeta > Syn Shenron > Kamehameha x10 (Shadow Dragons) > Golden Freeza ~ SSJB Goku (Champa arc) > SSJB Goku (RoF arc) > SSJ4 Goku (Shadow Dragon arc) > Base Goku (RoF arc) ~ SSJ Goku (Shadow Dragon arc) >= Freeza (RoF arc) > SSJ Goku (BoG arc) ~ SSJ Goku (Super 17 arc) > SSJ2 Vegeta ~ Super Baby 2 > Super Oob > Super Baby 1 > SSJ Vegetto (Boo arc) > Goku (Baby arc) > Rildo (base) > Boohan > Freeza Goku (BoG arc)

Yeah, there is a lot of Gokus, but I've warned you, he is the measuring stick for my chain. As you can see, I chose to make Goku (Super) and Goku (GT) more or less equal whenever speculations was possible. I've assumed that Goku made similar progress in both series, so I took the easy way (yeah, I'm pretty lazy when it comes to powerscaling).

Then why SSJ4 Gogeta is weaker than SSJB Vegetto, you may ask. Well, there are two reasons.

First, because fusion potara is stronger than fusion dance. As such, Gogeta will never be as powerful as Vegetto under equal conditions. Second, because the conditions aren't even equal: while SSJ4 Vegeta was completely equal to SSJ4 Goku, SSJB Vegeta was clearly stronger than SSJB Goku at this point, and contrary to the fusion dance, he doesn't need to be hold back his power to make the fusion work. As such, Vegetto should be stronger by a noticeable margin.

My chain isn't complete, though. I'll do it later when I feel like it.

 

[Animelover5487]

SSJ4 Gogeta nor any GT character would make it past the first arc of Super. Power scaling wise, SSJG Goku can cause universe level destruciton, a destructive power no GT character has demonstrated.

 

[Pocket-God]

If people assume Initial Beerus > SSJ3 Vegito, then why not assume Super Bebi 1 > SSJ3 Vegito?

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

SSJ4 Gogeta nor any GT character would make it past the first arc of Super. Power scaling wise, SSJG Goku can cause universe level destruciton, a destructive power no GT character has demonstrated.

The OP said he's not gonna use feats.

As for the thread, Merged Zamasu is definitely weaker than Vegito even with his power ups later.

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

I don't think you can assume the boost from SSJB = SSJ4. The SSJ4 boost is absolutely enormous, probably dozens of times SSJ3, while we have no solid evidence on the SSJB multiplier.

 

[Animelover5487]

The OP said he's not gonna use feats.

Oh, missed that. Fair enough then.

I don't think you can assume the boost from SSJB = SSJ4. The SSJ4 boost is absolutely enormous, probably dozens of times SSJ3, while we have no solid evidence on the SSJB multiplier.

Super Saiyan God is a larger multiplier than the Potara fusion and Super Saiyan Blue is even more powerful than that.

 

[Keedounan]

If people assume Initial Beerus > SSJ3 Vegito, then why not assume Super Bebi 1 > SSJ3 Vegito?

Already covered in my post. Goku stated that he has the strongest power he ever felt, which should only take into account SSJ Vegetto. How could he sense the ki of someone who never existed, after all. However, BoG's statement is a different story. Goku clearly stated that Vegetto wouldn't stand a chance, even at his strongest.

I don't think you can assume the boost from SSJB = SSJ4. The SSJ4 boost is absolutely enormous, probably dozens of times SSJ3, while we have no solid evidence on the SSJB multiplier.

While I think that dozens of times is exaggerated (though you might have a point, considering my memory about GT is really crappy), I get your point. One could make SSJB simply 2x stronger than SSJ3 (post-SSJG) and not contradict anything. As far as Anime is concerned, at least.

Super Saiyan God is a larger multiplier than the Potara fusion and Super Saiyan Blue is even more powerful than that.

In Anime, Goku kept the SSJG power inside him, which means that he's already "SSJG" as base, ssj, ssj2 and ssj3, just without the godly ki and its benefits (yeah, that's complicated). As such, the SSJB doesn't need to be way higher than his SSJ3 (post-SSJG).

Well, let's update my chain.

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

I'll admit, dozens of times SSJ3 might be a bit much. It depends on if SSJ3 Goku was actually stronger in his second fight with Baby or if how well he did was just PIS. It's definitely more than 10 times SSJ3, though.

 

[Keedounan]

I'll admit, dozens of times SSJ3 might be a bit much. It depends on if SSJ3 Goku was actually stronger in his second fight with Baby or if how well he did was just PIS. It's definitely more than 10 times SSJ3, though.

I've just checked something, and the SSJ4 really might be that powerful. I mean, the SSJ4 is able to fight evenly with Oozaru Baby, while he couldn't do anything to his weakest form as SSJ3. Also, keep in mind that Goku's own Oozaru form was overpowering Super Baby 2.

The SSJ4 really seems to have a crazy boost. And that's without Beyond Limits...

Maybe I was wrong when I said that SSJ4 Gogeta was weaker than SSJB Vegetto ? I'll verify it as I'm doing my chain.

 

[SSJ2]

I think Baby gets a lower Gold Oozaru multiplier due to not being fully Saiyan, so he can't utilize its full abilities.

 

[SSJ2]

Actually not even that, I just view Gold Oozaru as 25x Base, which be Base Baby Vegeta in this case. SSJ4 goes well beyond the 25x.

 

[Keedounan]

I think Baby gets a lower Gold Oozaru multiplier due to not being fully Saiyan, so he can't utilize its full abilities.

That's possible too, a bit like Super Perfect Cell who wasn't way stronger than SSJ2 Gohan despite being "SSJ2" too. It's either that, or SSJ4's boost is crazy as hell !

 

[SSJ2]

I've got SSJ4 being ~227x Base, which I figure is a lot less impressive than most.

 

[Keedounan]

Actually not even that, I just view Gold Oozaru as 25x Base, which be Base Baby Vegeta in this case. SSJ4 goes well beyond the 25x.

Considering that Super Baby 2's state is permanent (at least as long as he's mind controlling Vegeta), as well as Oozaru Baby actually wearing the same clothes as he did right before transforming, I doubt that the Oozaru boost was simply a boost from his "base form", if he even have one.

 

[Animelover5487]

[

]In Anime, Goku kept the SSJG power inside him, which means that he's already "SSJG" as base, ssj, ssj2 and ssj3, just without the godly ki and its benefits (yeah, that's complicated). As such, the SSJB doesn't need to be way higher than his SSJ3 (post-SSJG).

Well, let's update my chain.

Well I am of the impression that there was a retcon that took place after the movie remakes when Toiryama intended for Base and Super Saiyan to be the only forms to improve on outside of SSJB. After the retcon I would assume everything with the multipliers went back to normal, which fits with Zamasu's statement of the Super Saiyan forms still being in the dozens of times. Getting to the point, I believe the Base and non-god forms were all nerfed following the Champa Saga, the only form that puts Goku and Vegeta at god tier is SSJB imo.

 

[Keedounan]

[

]In Anime, Goku kept the SSJG power inside him, which means that he's already "SSJG" as base, ssj, ssj2 and ssj3, just without the godly ki and its benefits (yeah, that's complicated). As such, the SSJB doesn't need to be way higher than his SSJ3 (post-SSJG).

Well, let's update my chain.

Well I am of the impression that there was a retcon that took place after the movie remakes when Toiryama intended for Base and Super Saiyan to be the only forms to improve on outside of SSJB. After the retcon I would assume everything with the multipliers went back to normal, which fits with Zamasu's statement of the Super Saiyan forms still being in the dozens of times. Getting to the point, I believe the Base and non-god forms were all nerfed following the Champa Saga, the only form that puts Goku and Vegeta at god tier is SSJB imo.

Well, :toei is inconsistent with the power levels anyways.

* On the hand, Base Vegeta could beat Gotenks. You don't like including fillers, but remember: :toei included several fillers from the original series. Plus, Goku mentionned Copy-Vegeta, making it canon to Anime.

* On the other hand, Piccolo is able to handle 4th form Frost, Fat Boo is apparently even stronger (Goku has more faith in him than Piccolo, even in Champa arc), and SSJ Gohan can hold his own against Goku's own SSJ form.

* The fact that they picked Roshi over Yamcha despite the fact the latter surpassed since back in Saiyan arc shows their regards towards Toriyama's powerscaling...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, as your theory is interesting, but since :toei are known for buffing characters for no reason, including Beerus, I'd prefer to avoid assuming what their intents are, even with Toriyama supervising.

 

[Animelover5487]

Well, :toei is inconsistent with the power levels anyways.

That's why I ignore most Toei-based material nowadays. If the scene is clearly in Toriyama's script I'll accept it as canon but nonsensical scenes from filler episodes like SSJ Goku vs SSJ Gohan I take with a grain of salt.

but remember: :toei included several fillers from the original series.

Yeah, but no one in the fandom takes them seriously. Dumb shit like Pikkon effortlessly defeating Cell yet being on par with SSJ Goku and Yamcha effortlessly defeating Olibu who isn't far from Pikkon/SSJ Goku or Kid Boo being the strongest Boo are prime examples of Toei's failure at powerscaling.

Plus, Goku mentionned Copy-Vegeta, making it canon to Anime.

Not sure if that would make it canon as it was mostly just a gag line.

On the other hand, Piccolo is able to handle 4th form Frost,

Piccolo stood no chance and was forced to use a technique that brought him well past his limits. All Piccolo showed was that he's good at defending himself against a beaten down Frost but offensively he couldn't do shit. Piccolo only needs to be stronger than Base Saiyans, whom were retconned back to Boo saga levels.

Fat Boo is apparently even stronger (Goku has more faith in him than Piccolo, even in Champa arc),

Which is why making Base Saiyans stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks or worse god tier is impossible.

and SSJ Gohan can hold his own against Goku's own SSJ form.

That's the kind of dumb shit I am talking about. Gohan is a slacker. he can't be much stronger than ROF otherwise all the statements about him not fighting anymore make no sense.

The fact that they picked Roshi over Yamcha despite the fact the latter surpassed since back in Saiyan arc shows their regards towards Toriyama's powerscaling...

I can accept Roshi's power up, it's been many years since the Saiyan arc and even though it isn't in any way implied he's been training it's not impossible. Yamcha is also probably super rusty right now which also contributes to how Roshi surpassed him.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, as your theory is interesting, but since :toei are known for buffing characters for no reason, including Beerus, I'd prefer to avoid assuming what their intents are, even with Toriyama supervising.

That's one of the basis of my theory. We accept Beerus ever-so retconning power level, so why can't we accept they did the same thing with Goku/Vegeta? I mean the U6 fighters (excluding Hit) aren't very noteworthy to Goku and Vegeta, I would think if the whole team was at god tier that would be something incredible to them, especially a young Saiyan like Cabba reaching that level in base. That would make him a prodigy among prodigies.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

The reason why Piccolo was able to hold his own against Frost was because he's skills and Frost even said that Piccolo is clever.

 

[Keedounan]

Yeah, but no one in the fandom takes them seriously.

And yet they consider the DBS Anime as canon . Personally, I don't. In fact, I'm beginning to think that DB + Jaco + Interview are the only things that are canon.

Dumb shit like Pikkon effortlessly defeating Cell yet being on par with SSJ Goku and Yamcha effortlessly defeating Olibu who isn't far from Pikkon/SSJ Goku or Kid Boo being the strongest Boo are prime examples of Toei's failure at powerscaling.

Knew about it.

Not sure if that would make it canon as it was mostly just a gag line.

Now you're being picky. This being a funny line doesn't keep it from being canon. And Why Goku would refer to a moment that never happened anyways ? It doesn't make sense, does it ?

Piccolo stood no chance and was forced to use a technique that brought him well past his limits. All Piccolo showed was that he's good at defending himself against a beaten down Frost but offensively he couldn't do shit. Piccolo only needs to be stronger than Base Saiyans, whom were retconned back to Boo saga levels.

That part is simply your opinion, don't state it as if it was a fact. The rest is fair enough.

Which is why making Base Saiyans stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks or worse god tier is impossible.

Everything is possible with Toei, unfortunately. Why would you accept that Goku (M13) is somehow stronger than Mystic Gohan and the others, but have a harder time doing a similar thing with Super ?

That's the kind of dumb shit I am talking about. Gohan is a slacker. he can't be much stronger than ROF otherwise all the statements about him not fighting anymore make no sense.

:toei never made sense. Which is one of the reasons I don't consider Anime to be canon. And Gohan did train with Piccolo, and might have trained afterwards. After all, he did said he wanted to become powerful to be able to protect what he hold dear.

I can accept Roshi's power up

What ?

it's been many years since the Saiyan arc and even though it isn't in any way implied he's been training it's not impossible.

Fine, let's just say for one second that this is true...what kind of training he has done ? When he has been training ? Why nobody said anything about it ? No evidence, no foreshadowing, yet you're telling that it makes sense...

Yamcha is also probably super rusty right now which also contributes to how Roshi surpassed him.

So, you're telling that it's logical that 12 years without training are enough for another slacker, who previous trained his whole life to get at 139+, to surpass him without any problem

That's one of the basis of my theory. We accept Beerus ever-so retconning power level, so why can't we accept they did the same thing with Goku/Vegeta?

This is something that we've always been accepting with :toei. They always messed with the powerscaling in all productions. Fat Boo, Piccolo and SSJ Gohan being anywhere near as powerful as SSJ3 Gotenks (Potaufeu arc) is something that I already consider a retcon. So, you could say that people are already accepting a retcon. Just not the one that you want them to accept. As for me, I have no difficulty to "accept" it, the Anime is non-canon to me.

I mean the U6 fighters (excluding Hit) aren't very noteworthy to Goku and Vegeta, I would think if the whole team was at god tier that would be something incredible to them, especially a young Saiyan like Cabba reaching that level in base. That would make him a prodigy among prodigies.

Don't call him Cabba !!! It's Kyabe !

On a more serious note, Vegeta did encouraged him to do surpass him. Their apparent lack of interest might be justified by the fact that they weren't using their full power. They prefer to fight an opponent that pushes them to their limits, such as Hit.

 

[Keedounan]

My updated chain.

For Super, the chain only contains the character's powers from BoG arc to Trunks arc (fillers excluded). Universe Survival will be included once the arc (thus Super, probably) is over.

Warning: the chain is long ! I've spared you fodders and/or unpopular characters to keep it as short as possible, but it's still long. Read it at your own risk

Spoiler

SSJB Vegetto >= Merged Zamasu > SSJ4 Gogeta > Omega Shenron > SSJB Vegeta (Post-RoSaT) > SSJ4 Goku (Beyond Limits) = SSJ4 Vegeta > SSJR Goku Black > SSJ Rage Trunks > SSJB Goku (Trunks arc) = SSJB Vegeta (Trunks arc) > Future Zamasu > Syn Shenron > KKx10 SSJB Goku = Hit (Champa arc) > Super 17 (post-Kamehameha x10) > SSJ4 Goku (Shadow Dragons arc) > Nuova Shenron > SSJB Goku (Champa arc) = SSJB Vegeta (Champa arc) > Eis Shenron = SSJ4 Goku (Super 17 arc) > Golden Freeza > SSJB Goku (RoF arc) = SSJB Vegeta (RoF arc) > SSJ Goku (Champa arc) = SSJ Vegeta (Champa arc) > 4th form Frost = SSJ Kyabe > 3rd form Frost > Base Goku (Champa arc) > Base Goku (RoF arc) > Beerus ("100%") > Freeza (RoF arc) > SSJ Goku (post-SSJG) = SSJG Goku (BoG arc) > Golden Oozaru Baby > SSJ4 Goku (Baby arc) > SSJ Goku (Super 17 arc) > SSJ2 Vegeta (Super 17 arc) > Super Oob = Beerus ("10%") > Super Baby 2 > SSJ2 Enraged Vegeta >= SSJ2 Vegetto (BoG arc) = Super Oob > Super Baby 1 = SSJ Vegetto (BoG arc) > SSJ Vegetto (Boo arc) > Baby Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku (Baby arc)