Goku's underrated character development and writing - an analysis

Captain Cadaver

Zeta Elite
Retired Staff
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
27,967
So, after re-evaluating several parts of the manga, I've come to the conclusion that the character writing for its protagonist is a lot better than I previously gave him credit for, even for his commonly criticised portrayal in the Cell and Boo Arcs. I'll be using this thread to explain why rather than bumping the Character Analysis thread since this is going to be a long entry. Feel free to discuss the points I bring up along the way.

As an introduction, I'd like to bring up how character writing is treat by the fanbase and how its "simplistic" characters are treat. Yes, Dragon Ball's characters have somewhat simplistic personalities in terms of having clearly defined character traits and the series having a fairly simple good vs evil divide in its conflict. However, that's not to say DB's characters completely lack depth or complexity as both those attributes can be seen if a character responds to a situation realistically and have at least some level of conflict within their actions, of which can be seen in Goku and several other DB characters. Without further ado, onto the analysis.

Part 1 - Dragon Ball/Part 1 Era

In his introduction, Goku is a fairly simplistic character, though that's not to say he's one-note. He has notable naivete when it comes to society and the sexes and despite having a clear set goal in mind, he isn't selfish like modern material and the fanbase like to paint his character as always being. This is probably seen best in him saving Umigame. Whilst he did have Umigame not looking tasty as a reason for sparing him, there was no need to make such a detour in the quest for the Dragon Balls if he was self-centred and expecting something in return. This selflessness also helps contrasts him with the other main characters, with the main cast in this arc being at the most selfish we'll see in the series as a collective. Despite that, he also has quite a simplistic moral compass when it comes to death as he has no problem killing all manner of wild beasts due to living in the wilderness. This trait is made retroactively better when getting to the Saiyan Arc and seeing how at his least developed, Goku's nature still had inklings of a Saiyan's savagery.

These traits continue to be established in the Red Ribbon Army Arc in which he chooses to save Jingle Village at the expense of putting his journey on-hold. Still, we see the simplicity expected of someone raised in the wildnerness for most of their life as it can be easily argued he may not have helped out had Suno and her mother not saved him from the cold. Along with that, his moral compass is simplistic enough in that he just needs to be told someone is an enemy in order to have no qualms beating them up.

0057-007.png

He is still aware enough that killing without a valid reason is bad, however, when believing he killed Metallic. Despite that, he isn't too affected by it, showing just how his natural lifestyle on Mount Paozu has taught him that death is a natural part of conflict, as well as perhaps being evidence that his Saiyan instincts may have played a part in his early characterisation.

0059-011.png

Another common misinterpretation of Goku's character is that he's dumb in all but battle. Whilst a lot of his ideas come about through battle, not all of them are ones conventional of martial arts. Instances such as pointing out Kuririn having no nose should mean Bacterian won't affect him, pouring tea down Murasaki's bamboo shoot or breaking the wall to freeze Buyon all require some level of critical thought (which again makes his portrayal in Super all the worse, but that's for another time).
Despite not liking innocent people being harmed, Goku also isn't bothered if they wish to sacrifice themselves, as seen in his reaction to the village chief saying to beat White even if he has to die himself.

0066-008.png

Going back to his morality at this point, we can also see he has no problem with killing those he considers bad if they are at the level where they'd hurt his friends, threatening to kill Blue and being pretty happy Taopaipai died.

0077-010.png

0077-011.png

0092-014.png

This reinforces the idea that whilst Goku is selfless enough to help out strangers, he only actively seeks to kill people at this point if they personally affect him by harming his inner circle. This is soon seen again when, despite Black fleeing, Goku actively pursues and kills him for being the leader of the Red Ribbon Army.

0096-013.png

Shifting gears to Goku's being pure-hearted in riding the Kinto'un and negating the Akkumite Beam, his actions still correspond with that. Baba even makes it apparent Goku's more animalistic upbringing could've been a factor in this.

0104-010.png

And as we'd see later on in the manga with Vegeta, being pure of heart doesn't really mean being a paragon of good.

0149-011.png

That said, Goku being pure of heart has more to do with being pure and genuine in his motivations.

Now, Goku's experiences in West City are quite interesting in showing his growth as he's able to quickly deduce those asking him for money aren't going to help him. When actually getting help, he simply gives the woman all the money he earned.

0068-013.png

This is interesting not just in seeing how alien something like civilisation is to Goku, but also his perception of the world and various concepts. Whilst most will view money as a goal to strive towards in collecting it, Goku sees it as a means to an end and paper that has little value beyond what society places on it. In that respect, there's some surprising similarities between Kid Goku and an Ubermensch character like Conan the Barbarian (the novel version, not the movie one) - both being "noble savages" of sorts that create their own moral code rather than following societies. In fact, a lot of Saiyan attributes can be seen as somewhat Nietzschen, but more on that later.

Beyond things such as his match with Kuririn showing the difference between Goku fighting a regular opponent and Goku fighting a friend, as well as some growth in his social awareness with him being able to deduce Upa is a boy without his trademark patting, there isn't much to add on Goku's character until we get to the Piccolo Daimao Arc. Against Tambourine, we see Goku at the angriest he's ever been as he'll do everything he can to kill Tambourine and avenge his best friend.

0136-002.png

Again, Goku's friends (especially Kuririn) are extremely important to him, something Super seems to ignore. There's more to this than to a lot of other Shonen protagonists who get angry at their friends being in danger though, as you have to consider that until Bulma, Goku's only human contact was to Gohan who died when Goku was very young and left such a mark that Goku treasured his Four Star Ball as a form of contact. These bonds are something Goku went without experiencing fully for years and the severing of them offers far more impact because of this.
We further see this not only in his killing of Tambourine, but that of Drum and his threat to Piccolo Daimao when discovering the latter also killed Roshi.

0155-003.png

0156-003.png

0157-020.png

Goku was going in out for blood, a stark contrast from his later battles, though this will soon be elaborated on.
Also, take note of Goku's reaction upon finally defeating Piccolo. This will become important when I get on to covering the Freeza Arc.

0161-005.png

0161-006.png

After beating Piccolo Daimao, Goku had become somewhat arrogant in believing he'd reached the top until Popo schooled him.

0164-002.png

0164-003.png

This goes quite a bit in explaining perhaps the biggest change in his character in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and one that would redefine his character for the rest of the series - sparing Piccolo. He explains this as due to not wanting to kill Kami, which makes sense when he's spent 3 years with him. However, he also makes it apparent he also doesn't want to lose the only other person who can challenge him at this point.

0194-005.png

0194-011.png

0194-012.png

This decision makes sense when taking the previous part with Popo into account. Goku has been told by both Roshi and Popo that there is always a stronger fighter out there and to not get overconfident, yet where would he go after definitively proving he is the strongest in the world and if he were to let the only contestant for that title die?

Along with that, his increased value of life is explainable through his 3 years of training in which we see meditation as a part of it, an act meant to empty the mind and to avoid vices such as anger.

0164-006.png

0165-014.png

On top of what Popo and Kami may have taught him on the matter, we can deduce that Goku may have gained an extra understanding of the aftelife, as the idea of souls wandering for eternity due to their fate being one that definitely goes against the possible perception that all souls may end up where Gohan did. That said, I'd say we're given enough to piece together why Goku's change in mindset happened and how it is decent growth for his character.

Before wrapping up the DB material, one additional thing to point out is Goku's reaction to Kami offering him the title of God. Keep that in mind as we move onto the Saiyan Arc..

0194-013.png

But that will have to wait for another post as this one has gone on long enough. Hope you found this first part interesting, at least.
 

Captain Cadaver

Zeta Elite
Retired Staff
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
27,967
Part 2 - Saiyan/Freeza Arcs

With his opening appearance in the Saiyan Arc, we see the major change in Goku's maturity - having fully become a husband and father. Contrary to the meme of "Goku is a bad father" we see Goku doing a good parenting job with Gohan as he teaches his son what the objects and people around him are as a good parent does.

0002-004.png

[/spoiler]

Alongside that, Goku still allows Chichi to have her way in raising Gohan, despite personally not liking it.

[spoiler][img]https://mangabeast.com/manga/Dragon-Ball-Full-Color-Saiyan-Arc/0002-009.png

Moving back to his response to Kami offering him Godhood, Goku wouldn't bother listening or staying with Chichi if he didn't enjoy her company. Contrary to how they're presented in Toei land, their marriage is pretty stable and Goku is now pretty open to compromise. Of course, there's also the motivation of him fighting Raditz being to rescue his son.

Contrary to how modern material paints him, Goku isn't always wanting a good fight beyond all else. He's actively scared by both Raditz and the idea of enemies stronger than him.

0002-010.png

0006-002.png

As for how Goku is more excited when facing later opponents, that will be explained shortly, though it's worth noting his fear for Raditz trumping that of many later foes far beyond his power would be due to this being the first time since becoming adept in sensing Ki that Goku has sensed someone so far above him.
Also, Goku is the one who comes up with the plan to take down Raditz in grabbing his tail. This reinforces the leader role and pedestal he's later placed on by his allies. It's not that Goku is often the strongest, but that he's the one who usually comes up with the plan to defeat a new enemy which is why his allies place their hopes on him.
In the Raditz meeting, we also see a major change in Goku's morality. Whilst before he only seemed concerned with those who personally interacted with him, he is now so attuned to civilisation and human morality that he'd rather die than kill innocent strangers.

0003-012.png

One thing that tends to get looked over by a lot of people is Goku's reaction to hearing Raditz say that their parents are dead, contrasting it with his appearance in the previous page.

0003-010.png

0003-011.png

Goku goes from standing tall defiantly to hunching back somewhat, Kuririn seemingly taking note of Goku's reaction. He may not have known them personally, but the confirmation his parents are dead troubles Goku nonetheless. This may be different if he was aware of how they acted as Saiyans (prior to the Minus retcon, anyway) though.

Moving onto the Raditz fight, we have Goku infamously sparing Raditz and completely dropping the ball. This is pretty consistent with his previous sparing of Taopaipai when he begged or his later sparing of Freeza. When seeing the similarity between all these, it becomes less about Goku being naive or dumb and more to do with a consistent character flaw of his - Goku isn't the type of person to beat someone when they're down or kill them if they're begging for their life, regardless of how much he hates them (especially in the case of Freeza). This can be seen as something Gohan or Roshi may have taught him, or perhaps something that was further emphasised through Kami's training and value of life.

Of course, we can't analyse Goku's character without talking about his first death. Despite knowing he would be revived, Goku is pretty calm for someone who just got pierced with a searing drill of energy, even cracking jokes as he dies.

0010-013.png

This goes back to Goku's upbringing and his training with Kami, learning that death is something to be accepted in life.

One interesting part of Goku's character in this arc is him coming to terms with his heritage. At first, he's completely against the idea of being a Saiyan. Even if it's a fact, he wouldn't accept being associated with their lifestyle.

0003-009.png

0005-008.png

After having months by himself and likely having some time to reflect internally, there is a clear change in Goku upon reaching Kaio's.

0017-008.png

Goku has completely accepted his heritage, even if he doesn't choose to follow it. It also makes sense for this change to occur without any sort of internal conflict arc as, like with accepting to marry Chichi, it doesn't take Goku too long to accept important events for what they are, which is pretty consistent with the Buddhist-esque teachings associated with actions such as meditation and increasing spirituality as Popo's training focused on, coming to accept mortal events for what they are.

Moving onto Kaio's training, this interaction shows that Goku is quick to understanding the situation. Again, Goku isn't dumb as Super likes to paint him as.

0016-011.png

Moving onto the fight with Nappa and Vegeta, we have more instances of the original manga not lining up with Super's flanderisation in Goku putting his friends before himself. Him getting angry over their deaths and offering a hit to Nappa for each of the dead is obvious, but it's also worth noting how he chooses to give the Senzu to Gohan and Kuririn rather than saving any for himself, something he'd repeat on Namek.

0030-006.png

Onto the fight with Vegeta and we get a line that, for many, will come to define Goku's approach to battle for the rest of the series.

0034-014.png

It's worth noting even Goku is surprised he's getting excited despite the situation. The Namek Arc will later somewhat explain this as a natural reaction due to his Saiyan blood.

0005-014.png

This leads into a decision that, no matter the rationale, was selfish in his sparing of Vegeta due to how strong he was. This, however, is still consistent with his character for similar reasons to with Piccolo. After reaching what seemed to be the pinnacle of training, Goku still couldn't defeat Vegeta and, as we'll later see with Boo, the idea of not being able to defeat an enemy by himself is something that dissatisfies Goku when his journey thus far has been one of becoming stronger and proving himself in battle. He also says that he'd be sure to defeat Vegeta next time, which is reasonable when even if needing to resort to teamwork, the three remaining fighters would have enough time to formulate a more solid plan and wouldn't need to worry about Oozaru.

Some would also cite this as inconsistent with his altruistic personality thus far, with even his sparing of Piccolo having a more benevolent excuse for it, but to say that would be to underestimate realism in his character. If the good guy is constantly being selfless 100% of the time then they are not only one-note, but far too unrealistic in their motivations. Goku's balance between self-centred and selfless actions are what help with the writing of his character and making it feel more realistic.

Going back a bit to Goku VS Oozaru Vegeta, one thing often overlooked is Goku's sadness in realising he was the one who killed Grandpa Gohan.

0039-007.png

Along with hoping Gohan would forgive him, this is one of the few moments where we see Goku accept that the situation is hopeless for him and that he can't win. Once more, he's even accepting of a seemingly inevitable death.

0040-013.png

Finally for this arc, there's Goku's encouragement of Gohan.

0042-007.png

0042-008.png

0042-009.png

Whilst he does get sharp with him on the last page, that's after some kind encouragement of him. All that, plus seeing the man he cares for most hurt, is enough to send Gohan into a rage and face Vegeta alone. Compare that to Piccolo's strict teachings and insults at Gohan's weakness resulting in Gohan cowering from Nappa for most of the fight and it's safe to say the "Piccolo is Gohan's dad" meme isn't as accurate as we'd like to think.




Onto the Freeza Arc, there isn't much to add for the earlier portions. It is worth noting Goku always having a plan remains consistent here.

0005-012.png

Other than that, just more confirmation of Goku caring for his son and friends during the battle with the Ginyu Tokusentai. Despite the idea that Goku always puts a good fight above everything else, he tries to remain true to his promise to Kaio and the warning he was given.

0038-006.png

Also, his reaction to Vegeta needlessly killing those far weaker than him shows a striking difference between his adult and kid selves and an extra sense of maturity in life's value. Whilst Reacoom and Butta fit with Goku not liking the idea of killing a helpless enemy, Vegeta killing Jheese is a major change from back when he slaughtered Red Ribbon soldiers and Mazoku.

0037-014.png

0044-009.png

The main bulk of Goku's character moments in this arc, of course, come during the battle with Freeza. First, his words here show that regardless of the situation, Goku is diligent in upholding his promises, reinforcing him sticking by his word to Kaio until there was no other choice.

0062-006.png

Going back to Goku being somewhat disturbed by the revelation of his parents' death, his resolve in defeating Freeza being strengthened by Vegeta's words reinforces this compassion, not to mention being moved by Vegeta stripping down all his layers and pleading to Goku to defeat Freeza. This respect for Vegeta's Saiyan pride and acceptance of his own are a nice little bit of character growth when contrasting it to how he was against Raditz.

0063-003.png

0063-004.png

0063-005.png

0063-006.png

Now, the biggest major criticism to give to the Goku VS Freeza fight is the whole opening act being both parties warming up. From a pacing perspective, this is indeed a problem, though it makes sense for Goku's character. Back in the Saiyan Arc, he made note of trying not to use Kaioken unless necessary and even stayed at a resting state of 5k against the Ginyus, only using close to his full power in bursts. It makes sense for him to conserve his Ki until sure he'd need to use more. This also makes the battle fairly similar to the Piccolo Daimao fight, of which I'll touch on again soon...

Moving onto the main event and Super Saiyan, we have Goku being fairly arrogant compared to usual, letting Freeza hit him and letting his enemy go 100%.

0074-007.png

0074-008.png

0076-004.png

0076-005.png

However, that third and last pages justify his reason for acting this way. Due to the pain Freeza has caused him in killing Kuririn (seemingly permanently as far as Goku knew at that point), he doesn't want to just kill Freeza, but truly humiliate this person who has gone unchallenged his entire life. He wants to break both Freeza's body and spirit.
Before going into the conclusion on that, I'd like to rectify a point I used to make in that Goku declaring himself a Super Saiyan seemed quite a random choice when he had little to no knowledge of it beforehand. However, he clearly accepted the pride of the Saiyans as his own in this fight and, as we'd later learn in the following arc, the Super Saiyan form has its own unique Ki signature to separate its signal from base.

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).

That said, Goku deducing that this was indeed what Vegeta spoke of (as Gohan quickly did too) makes sense and lines up with Goku being quick to catch onto the situation.

Going back to the fight with Freeza, we get up to a major chance in Goku's motivation - quitting the fight. This does line up with Goku's motivation in fighting Freeza too that I already elaborated on, with Goku providing all that needs to be said here:

0080-009.png

Also, the last panel lines up well with Goku's initial morality of mainly just caring for those who help him. Whilst Kami's teachings and eventual maturity would've had him value all sentient life, he still has enough realistic self-centredness to not be bothered sparing Freeza as long as he remains oblivious to his crimes. In other words, Goku's morality is far more interesting than a paragon of good, whilst far more selfless than the charicature of him only caring about fights.

The Freeza fight is in some ways similar to that against Piccolo Daimao, and not just in that they're the two best villains in the franchise. Both are villains that lead to the death of Kuririn and bring Goku's rage to new heights through this. The difference lies in the conclusion of these fights. Whilst Goku ends up bringing himself to the limit and being ecstatic at avenging his friends against Daimao, it's a far different situation against Freeza, all illustrated in this one, powerful expression.

0082-013.png

Freeza's desire to prove he couldn't be surpassed lead to him weakening himself, and putting him down long after Goku was satisfied in having proved himself was far from worth the build-up he'd been given to it. There's a lot of things to draw on this about Goku's characterisation, this exchange being another one leading up to it:

0082-006.png

In maturing as an adult, Goku has fully learned the value of life and been able to sway two enemies thought irredeemable into at least some form of alliance. Him failing with Freeza can be seen as a reminder to him that some villains can't be talked out of their actions, something that creates a decent contrast when leading into Gohan VS Cell. It could also be that this moral code of not killing an enemy he perceived as helpless had to be broken here due to Freeza's inability to be reasoned with, leaving Gou dissatisfied with both the fight and himself.

That said, Goku's growth in these arcs, particularly his characterisation as a Super Saiyan, are a lot more interesting than I previously gave credit to. Next time, onto the Cell and Boo Arcs.
 

Fantastische Hure

Zeta Elite
25k
Joined
Jun 1, 2015
Messages
30,769
Age
29
One thing you didn't mention was Goku telling Gohan they'd go fishing before the fight with Vegeta. :cry :cry :cry
 

Captain Cadaver

Zeta Elite
Retired Staff
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
27,967
Fantastische Hure said:
One thing you didn't mention was Goku telling Gohan they'd go fishing before the fight with Vegeta. :cry :cry :cry
Good point. Considering we get fruition on such events during the peaceful days prior to the Cell Game, coming back to it during the Cell Arc analysis in one nice package will work.
 

Fantastische Hure

Zeta Elite
25k
Joined
Jun 1, 2015
Messages
30,769
Age
29
You know the weird thing is that despite Goku being good until the Cell saga, AT said Goku always viewed even his family as only "companions".
 

Keedounan

Elite
Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2016
Messages
5,276
Age
26
Wow. Here I thought I had Goku's character all figured out, now I feel like I've missed a lot of things about him when it was all in front of me.
This thread is very interesting. It goes to show the importance of reevaluating the depth of the characters and fictional works in general.

Who knows, maybe one day, we'll find out that Jiren was actually a good character after all. :troll
 

Captain Cadaver

Zeta Elite
Retired Staff
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
27,967
Keedounan said:
Who knows, maybe one day, we'll find out that Jiren was actually a good character after all. :troll
His manga self is a masterfully written, thought provoking character....when stacked up against his anime incarnation at least. :giraffe

Fantastische Hure said:
You know the weird thing is that despite Goku being good until the Cell saga, AT said Goku always viewed even his family as only "companions".
Whilst Goku's family will be a major point in me tackling the Cell Arc, it makes sense for that to be how Goku viewed his family. Goku's only companionship prior to Bulma showing up was the OG Gohan and, going back to the first part of this analysis, this has affected Goku's personal relationships with others. As a person who never grew up with any concept of romantic love and had limited familial ties from whatever young age he decided to look at the full moon, his perception on the difference between his love for his friends and that of his family would be skewered, beyond the simple fact that one of them lives with him.

Fantastische Hure said:
despite Goku being good until the Cell saga
And without further ado, time to defend his Cell Arc characterisation :troll

[youtube]KAHLwAxS7FI[/youtube]




Part 3 - Cell Arc

I'll start by jumping far ahead in serialisation to Trunks: The Story to point out an important thing about Goku's fatherhood, specifically Future Gohan's character.

0202.5-003.png

Gohan loves and respects his father enough to dress like him and aim to be as strong as he was, with Gohan still judging himself as not measuring up to his father. This shows in a unique difference between Gohan and his father and a reason as to why Gohan had yet to surpass his father - patience. Like when Dodoria was slaughtering Namekians, Gohan is compelled to stop them harming innocents.

0202.5-005.png

Of course, Goku also doesn't take kindly to innocent people being killed but, unlike his teenage self, Goku by the time of the Cell Arc has matured enough to think with a level-head about rushing into a battle without a solid plan.

0176-015.png

0180-014.png

Rather than going in guns blazing, Goku waits until there's an opening to save his friends without directly confronting Cell in battle.
Moving back to the start of the arc and we have one of the most difficult to defend moments for Goku's character in him deciding not to take out Gero early.

0142-007.png

I concede it would make more sense to have the Z-Warriors instead warn Gero, with his updated data making the Artificial Humans stronger in a far more convincing way than "muh time travel changed everything" but I'll also say the result we got is in line with Goku's character. Whilst they could have warned Gero, that would be assuming someone as pragmatic as Vegeta or Piccolo wouldn't seize the opportunity to just kill Gero and, as mentioned prior, Goku disdains killing helpless foes. It's also important to note Goku wasn't forcing his opinion on Bulma and was merely giving his rationale. I'd say this is far more reasonable than Tenshinhan being so obstinate as to fight without care for the results on the same page or Vegeta providing a pretty big threat to Bulma on the previous page:

0142-006.png

That said, Goku's decision here is fine. Whilst he may always have a plan, it's reasonable that warning Gero didn't cross his mind or that he was worried about how Vegeta would react if they found Gero. Another major point would be that they still had far from definitive proof to determine whether Trunks' story was truth or a well thought out lie, so tracking down Gero and (seeing as it'd be the only option beyond killing him) keeping constant surveillance on him based on questionable leads is something a lot of people may be against.
This is important when comparing it to Trunks and Kuririn destroying Gero's underground lab and present Cell since that was after direct confirmation that things had truly escalated (not to mention the time traveller hell-bent on changing the future leading the charge).

One overlooked part of Goku's character for this arc is his relationship with Chichi. In a scene that is played off as a gag, we do see a decent interaction between them.

0142-012.png

0142-013.png

0172-001.png

Chichi conceding to let Goku have his way and comparing that to the start of Z shows that whilst both can butt heads when it comes to their motivations for Gohan, they are both capable of compromising as is common in a stable relationship. The worry in Goku's face when putting the bandages on Chichi shows just how guilty he feels about hurting his wife too.

More on their relationship when moving onto the Boo Arc. For now, back to Goku and Gohan...is what I'll say when getting the stuff prior to the Rosat out of the way. First, more of Goku showing he cares for the lives of strangers that are lost due to his battles.

0145-006.png

0145-012.png

This (and a lot of the Cell Arc's) cases of civilian casualties is additionally potent when remembering that Goku and his friends ultimately decided their course of action in dealing with Gero and that Goku's character flaw in his mercy lead to this. It's easy to see why his expression of rage here is enough to match some of his previous bests when the blood is vicariously on his hands.

His reaction after waking up also shows this somewhat in the page's first panel, his expression seeming as sullen as you'd expect of someone who's been unable to help out, whilst the last panel also shows his ability to think of the bigger picture.

0171-015.png

Now, just before getting on to Goku and Gohan...Upon taking Gohan to train, Goku's reply to Kuririn's question is important in rationalising his mindset when it comes to practically every major villain he's fought since at least Vegeta.

0172-004.png

Goku may get excited fighting a powerful enemy, but his fear against Raditz wasn't some outlier. He can be both scared and excited facing off against a new threat, with his desire to fight for what he wishes to protect and to prove himself having been what's often had one outweigh the other. Getting a bit scientific, adrenaline and the fight or flight response are natural reactions when faced with fear, so Goku's response and mindset is pretty well grounded in reality.

I will touch on Goku keeping promises later on, but going back to his mention of their promise on Namek, there's this exchange just before Goku enters the Rosat with Gohan.

0181-005.png

Goku says a lot to Vegeta without spelling the point out, with Vegeta's reaction saying it all. Whilst Goku would want to fight Cell, it's just as good (if not better) that an ally who he can soon test the limits of his training against proves himself strong enough to take care of Cell in the mean-time. Goku hasn't forgotten his promise to Vegeta and with Vegeta declaring he'll defeat Cell, Goku's looking forward to the potential of having their long-awaited rematch. Nice subtlety there, Toriyama :nice.

Onto the Rosat training:

0183-007.png

0183-008.png

First off, it's pretty commendable Goku can remember these details about the room that he learned as a teenager. Kind of questionable he'd remember them and not the full details of Trunks' warning, but memories tend to be stronger depending on the experience and, as we'll soon see, it could be that Goku is better at long-term memories. Beyond that, him making it clear his aim is primarily on improving Gohan shows just how much he values his son's progress, somewhat foreshadowing what will happen at the Cell Game whilst also shown his role as a father. Not long after, we see just how he tutors Gohan in becoming a Super Saiyan:

0184-009.png

0184-010.png

As we'd later see, Goku's advice and positive encouragement would yield fruit in Gohan achieving what Goku set out to accomplish with him. Compare this approach to Piccolo's training method in the Saiyan Arc and I think it's safe to say who's training Gohan benefited more from. Also as a side note, I find Goku's reaction of "Freeza then! I don't care" nice in showing despite his mentor and father role, Goku is still as easy-going as always and doesn't get caught up on the minor details.
Of course, in the training, we end up with Goku deducing it's best to master regular Super Saiyan and showing his ability to think both quick and looking at the bigger picture. One thing that doesn't get brought up much is how much of a good job Goku did in cutting Gohan's hair. Again, the idea of battle being his only use is debunked.

Speaking of Goku's mentor role, one thing I forgot to mention in the previous part was how Toriyama was pretty good at using visual storytelling to display the development and growth of Goku's journey as a martial artist. Starting with Z, his gi became a good way of displaying his mindset as a martial artist with how he previously left its Kame kanji intact and identified as a Kame Sennin student, later incorporating Kaio's kanji into it after being tutored by him. It makes sense he wouldn't have included Karin's or Popo's at any point when there was no time to add in the former's at the time and the latter had no real symbol (the Kami kanji would be fairly unnecessary when Kami didn't train Goku personally). Upon going to Namek and replacing both with the Go kanji, there's a lot to draw from this in that Goku has incorporated the teachings of all these masters and, believing this to be the peak as far as others could tutor him, considers himself and his accumulated experiences as his own teacher in martial arts. To quote one of the most badass and tragic villains in fiction, "Now I am the Master" (I swear that'll be the last Star Wars reference I make in this post).
This helps explain Goku's role in the narrative. Whilst I have problems with a conflict directly related to Goku and Trunks not being directly solved by them and by Gohan instead, it makes sense for Goku to pass the torch from a narrative perspective when he has become a mentor as Roshi once was and is reaching the peak that his character growth can go.

Before jumping fully into his main decision of the arc, we get to see Goku reaffirming his desire to keep promises, his good long term memory and his good paternal role in one single page:

0033-011.png

0198-001.png

The following page also has a lot to unpack:

0198-002.png

Here, we see Goku enacting and teaching the lesson once taught to him about not over-training, quite fitting for his role as the mentor in this arc.

0031-005.png

[youtube]bxU2eqZtYmc[/youtube]

Clearly Goku's better at keeping his promises than I am :troll2.

However, this relaxed attitude can be seen as multi-faceted. Take into account Yamcha's premonition, as well as that of Freeza's:

0021-013.png

0019-005.png

It's established having premonitions for a crisis or impending death are a thing in DB, likely a sense of sort brought about through adept Ki control. That said, and looking back at things retroactively, we can infer Goku may have had a feeling that some tragedy awaited them, hence the "probably". Assuming he did have an inkling of his impending death, it may have been what motivated him to spend what days he had at peace with his family. Goku providing enough time to conceive Goten with Chichi in that timeframe as opposed to just a day of resting during the 3 year training would help support this too, him providing extra attention to his wife and her needs in case the worst may happen.

Then we get to Goku's decision of throwing the fight and bringing Gohan in. Many criticise this as a "Goku is a bad father" moment, but that couldn't be further from the contrary. Firstly, Goku clearly states why he is doing this:

0209-007.png

0209-008.png

0209-009.png

It's hard to argue with Goku's decision. Gohan had not only been trained for years to face this threat, but had kept up with or surpassed far more experienced friends and foes alike in the past, having also surpassed Goku here. Before Goku tells Gohan to save the world, he first asks Gohan whether or not he could keep up with that fight. Again, he talks clearly to his son and judges whether or not he's ready rather than flinging him into the fight unprepared.
Furthermore, Gohan has done all this and surpassed the Goku who once saved the world against Piccolo Daimao in the past by a nigh-infinite degree, the reference to the Daimao Arc even being brought up prior:

0199-004.png

Whilst Piccolo Daimao is an ant at this point, back then he was the biggest threat imaginable and it was a child who beat him. Cell is no different in Goku's eyes, a foe who could be matched or defeated by a very special child and there was no other choice really beyond everyone attacking Cell at once.

Of course, the elephant in the room when it comes to all this is Goku giving Cell a Senzu. I'd say this is one of the more difficult parts to justify beyond Goku's desire of a fair fight, but that alone sets the room up to do so. It's important to note that beyond Cell absorbing humans for nutrients (in effect, little different from his perspective to humans killing animals for the same purpose, something Goku's very accustomed to) and destroying an army that provoked him, Goku doesn't really have much of a reference to Cell's evil deeds when he was in the Rosat during him bombing the islands and his TV hijacking. As far as Goku's seen at the time, Cell may be the most reasonable villain he's faced in a long time, especially with him having enough of a warrior's pride to host a tournament. This would later be proven wrong with Cell having way too much Freeza in him, but based on what Goku knew, there seemed little to suggest Cell wasn't just an arrogant yet honourable fighter like Vegeta; especially when 3/5 of his genetic make-up include Goku and two villains he reformed.

Now, Goku's decision to have Gohan jump in was shown to be flawed. There are many points on Gohan's character change being contrived I can agree with, though this is a dissection of Goku's character and not his son's. That said, Goku making a decision based on the limits of his knowledge and being shown to make a mistake is not only understandable, but realistic. There is absolutely no person alive who hasn't made one major mistake in their judgement based on a limitation in knowledge and for Goku to constantly make the right call would simply make him a Gary Stu impossible to connect with. It's not as if he brushes off his mistake either. Upon seeing he was proven wrong, his reaction says more than words can:

0211-013.png

Even before that, the last panel of this page paints clearly what I said before:

0211-011.png

Goku shows in his expression he doesn't like what he's putting Gohan through, but there's no other choice he can make.

We know the drill from there. Goku later sacrifices himself in a meaningful moment in which he realises he's the only one who can stop the current situation, even showing his regret at leaving Chichi behind.

0218-011.png

Then we get to his refusal to be brought back to life and...this is the one part of his character in this arc I can't defend. Firstly, the part about "Bulma said I attract bad guys" is wrong as far as I'm aware. Kaio tells Goku this when Goku wanted to go to New Namek. I think Bulma may have said something along those lines in the Red Ribbon Army Arc when they were facing General Blue, but I honestly can't find anything. Nitpicks aside, Goku's reason makes no sense considering past villains. Pilaf and the Red Ribbon Army would've searched for the Dragon Balls regardless of Goku, with the latter likely getting their wish. Goku is vicariously responsible for Piccolo Daimao in that Pilaf unsealed him, though I'd question the thought process of anyone who places the blame on not letting someone kill them and take over the world because they'd unseal a demon you had no knowledge of years later, the same going for Dr. Gero and his creations in this arc. The Saiyans did come to Earth because of Goku, but only because they brought him there in the first place, leaving Mecha Freeza the only villain who's appearance on Earth can be solely placed on Goku's actions and that didn't matter when Goku/Trunks quickly took care of him. Overall, this is one red flag in Goku's character that was just an excuse to solidify his arc of passing the torch to Gohan, despite their being far better alternatives such as explaining how him not stopping Gero when he could have lead to all this.

Nevertheless, I'd say the pros still outweigh the large con. Even with a questionable ending, Goku's character arc of being a mentor and father to Gohan as well as accepting his mistakes and fully passing the torch were very well done in this arc, even if his character was slightly less consistent than prior.

This went on far longer than I expected, so the Boo Arc will have to wait for now.
 

Fantastische Hure

Zeta Elite
25k
Joined
Jun 1, 2015
Messages
30,769
Age
29
I don't know about that. The way he talks to Gohan and the way he treats him & even the first chapter shows to me that he knows the difference between his son and friends, but that's just my opinion I guess.

Goku definitely did give Gohan the best hair-cut of his life. He should cut his hair again.

Also there's Goku just before sacrificing himself telling Gohan to tell Chi-Chi that he's sorry he's always been selfish and that he's proud of Gohan.
 

Captain Cadaver

Zeta Elite
Retired Staff
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
27,967
Fantastische Hure said:
I don't know about that. The way he talks to Gohan and the way he treats him & even the first chapter shows to me that he knows the difference between his son and friends, but that's just my opinion I guess.
He definitely places Gohan on a higher level of importance than his friends, considering he thinks about saving Gohan specifically when arriving on Namek. It could just be another of :troll's retcons.

Also there's Goku just before sacrificing himself telling Gohan to tell Chi-Chi that he's sorry he's always been selfish and that he's proud of Gohan.
Included that towards the end of the post.
 

Fantastische Hure

Zeta Elite
25k
Joined
Jun 1, 2015
Messages
30,769
Age
29
Captain Cadaver said:
Fantastische Hure said:
I don't know about that. The way he talks to Gohan and the way he treats him & even the first chapter shows to me that he knows the difference between his son and friends, but that's just my opinion I guess.
He definitely places Gohan on a higher level of importance than his friends, considering he thinks about saving Gohan specifically when arriving on Namek. It could just be another of :troll's retcons.

Also there's Goku just before sacrificing himself telling Gohan to tell Chi-Chi that he's sorry he's always been selfish and that he's proud of Gohan.
Included that towards the end of the post.
And the way he talks to him as a father, like referring to himself in third person as father, like when he told Gohan they'd go fishing before the fight against Vegeta or when he asked Gohan whether he could keep-up with Goku vs Cell fight.

AT said that in an interview though, as if he always thought that when he wrote that. Maybe I'm mistaken but that might have been the same interview where he talked about the anime missing the "poison" in his character.
 

Future Warrior

Elite
Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2015
Messages
5,954
Age
22
Very good and informative read. This just drives the point further that Goku is way more complex than people even within the fandom give him credit for. I do have some disagreements with your interpretation of things, but I think arguing about a few points would be underselling the effort put into this thread. I know this is still not finished, but seeing this makes me really want to see your analysis of Vegeta if you ever consider doing it.

I was gonna save this until you were finished with the Boo arc section, but since it seems like that wont be finished as soon as your previous posts (understandably), I I'm too curious to know your perspective on Toriyama's statement regarding the nature of Goku since it might somewhat conflict with your perspective on the character.

There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows.
At any rate, I wanted him to have the sense of being that rare guy who seeks only “to become stronger than before”, so much so that it feels like “there’s no one as pure as this person”. And while he does end up saving everyone as a result of that, he himself at least has a very pure sincerity about “wanting to become stronger”. What I wanted to depict the most was the sense that he might not be a good guy at all, although he does do good things as a result.

Apparently these interviews were done shortly after the manga had concluded, so I'm not sure if it's the case of him being forgetful of his own work.

Honestly, this thread is kinda inspiring me to make a thread of my own detailing the progression of Goku's martial arts capabilities throughout the story.
 

Captain Cadaver

Zeta Elite
Retired Staff
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
27,967
Future Warrior said:
I do have some disagreements with your interpretation of things, but I think arguing about a few points would be underselling the effort put into this thread.
Feel free to share them. Discussion on the matter will only help improve the topic.

I was gonna save this until you were finished with the Boo arc section, but since it seems like that wont be finished as soon as your previous posts (understandably), I I'm too curious to know your perspective on Toriyama's statement regarding the nature of Goku since it might somewhat conflict with your perspective on the character.

There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows.
For this one, we have to invoke Death of the Author in analysing it rather than taking it as Word of God. The idea that Goku doesn't fight for the sake of other is true in the sense that it's not his sole motivation, but to say it's not Goku's reason for fighting would contradict what we're shown and stated several times in the manga (most notably Goku's fights with Piccolo Daimao, Nappa and Freeza).

At any rate, I wanted him to have the sense of being that rare guy who seeks only “to become stronger than before”, so much so that it feels like “there’s no one as pure as this person”. And while he does end up saving everyone as a result of that, he himself at least has a very pure sincerity about “wanting to become stronger”. What I wanted to depict the most was the sense that he might not be a good guy at all, although he does do good things as a result.
I can agree to some parts of this. Goku's sincerity in wanting to fight strong opponents is a major part of his goals. Whilst he doesn't want to do bad things, that's not to say he's completely altruistic either as I went into in the points of him sparing Vegeta and Freeza. It's difficult to say if Toriyama was going with the idea of Goku's decisions being harmful at times yet always coming out on top, in which case I'd agree, though if believing Goku to not truly be good and only does good things as a result of his own motivations would show a major misunderstanding of several parts of your own work. Some of that could be place on Toriyama's forgetfulness, considering some of Goku's shining achievements in helping others or fighting to protect them came prior to the Cell Arc.
 

Papasmurf

Zeta Elite
Legend
Member
Joined
May 30, 2015
Messages
30,620
Will you do Super/GT after the Boo arc, or are they too Toei/Toyotaro-saturated for you to bother?
 

Captain Cadaver

Zeta Elite
Retired Staff
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
27,967
[mention]Kenshi[/mention] I will, but in threads for their respective sections.
 

Captain Cadaver

Zeta Elite
Retired Staff
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
27,967
Part 4 - Boo Arc

As far as character-defining moments and development, there will be a lot less to say here than in previous parts when Goku's growth as a person was near enough tapped out in the Cell Game. That's not to say Goku's character is bland and static for this arc though, as a lot of his characterisation comes from how he interacts with and reacts to Vegeta.

There is some nice contrast shown in how they approach parenting. We've already gone into how Goku raises a child in the Cell Arc and it's obvious with Vegeta that your kid needing to hit you in a sparring match being the only thing you'll reward them for is...different to Goku. Beyond that, their differing reactions to Goten VS Trunks.

0240-010.png

0241-012.png

Vegeta takes his son's performance very personally, whereas Goku's reaction shows him not understanding why Vegeta is doing so. This contrast can be seen in the difference between what's typical of eastern families vs western families. Whilst many eastern cultures (Japan in particular) view successes and failures of one family member as that of the family to the point the "You bring dishonour to family!" stereotype has become a meme, most western cultures consider the accomplishments of an individual to be just that - individual actions not directly representing the family as a whole. Vegeta is closer to the eastern ideal of a father whereas Goku's personality is more similar to a western dad. This also makes quite a unique contrast with their wives that I just noticed, considering Bulma's personality, fashion and lifestyle are very rooted in western culture compared to Chichi's very traditionally Japanese outlook.

Still, Goku does have a few nice character moments, such as his answer in this interview showing his genuine nature.

0237-003.png

A character isn't only judged by their actions, but how other characters react to them and how their bonds affect them. In Chichi's condition 7 years on from Goku's death, we aren't told much yet it's what's not told that's important. It's far from rare for a woman to have moved on in that time and Chichi having not done so shows just how much she loved Goku and how she was content as far as her romantic needs go in not pursuing someone else. Again, Goku and Chichi's marriage is a very stable one.

Moving onto the events in Babidi's Spaceship, it's interesting to contrast Goku's reaction to Vegeta killing Pui Pui to what happened with the Ginyus.

0255-013.png

Makes sense, considering he would've explored Heaven in those 7 years and realised dying isn't such a bid deal in this universe as long as you lived a good life. His nonchalant attitude towards death not only links back to those Buddhist-esque training philosophies he'd have picked up from Popo's training (evidenced by him still using meditation as an effective form of training), but is fully reinforced by this page:

0283-013.png

Before he goes back to the afterlife, we also see more of Goku being a caring father in not just his encouragement of Gohan prior to the Majin Vegeta fight, but in giving Goten a hug in that previous page.

Back to the Babidi's Spaceship events and there's of course Goku choosing to fight Vegeta, even threatening Shin to do so. Whilst many would see this as proof of Goku caring more about the fight than anything else, the context behind his action is important:

0263-008.png

0263-009.png

Goku compromised with Babidi so that no civilian casualties would occur, which is the logical move when Babidi's magic makes him someone Goku can't just go up to and put into submission from what he knows.

Now, time to address a part people view as a problem with Goku's characterisation this arc - not killing Fat Boo when he had the chance. Firstly, Goku explains pretty clearly why he made his decision:

0282-011.png

His rationale is very understandable when he indeed doesn't belong there anymore, nor will the next generation learn to take care of their own problems if he just acts as a deus ex machina for them. Although his judgement would later be shown as incorrect, of which he accepts as his mistake, it's easy to see why he made the call. He'd ultimately been right before with Gohan and these two kids, despite being 2 (3 when taking into account Gohan's Rosat trip) years younger than him have achieved Super Saiyan and aren't leagues behind that Gohan during a time of peace. Not only that, but they're in walking distance from the Rosat in which they can train once learning the basics of fusion if necessary.
It's also worth noting that Goku saw he was able to appeal somewhat to Boo. I wouldn't put it past Goku to have perhaps considered destroying Boo if he weren't able to reason with him.

0281-010.png

Of course, there's also the time limit SS3 placed on him and Boo seemed to be far from near defeat by that point. It would've probably used up the rest of Goku's time to defeat Boo and, thus, wouldn't be able to prepare the kids for future threats that may appear from anywhere like Boo did.

Later on, we get to see another case of Goku being quick to come to ideas and being perceptive of others.

0285-009.png

Pretty nice to see how far Goku's worldly and social knowledge has come for someone who wouldn't have understood the appeal of women at all in his teenage years. Also, we can infer from Goku affirming his decision that he'd consider Bulma good looking by his standards. That may not be saying much though, considering what kind of looks he considered to be on the same tier when he was 12.

0025-009.png

0025-010.png

However, Goku is aware enough of beauty standards and qualities men look for to know Chichi is a step behind Bulma when he removes what personal bias he may have (if any).

0315-005.png

Also, this is one promise Goku doesn't fulfill, but given Vegeta's reaction it's understandable. Speaking of which, he also didn't fulfill his promise to Chichi to get a job after the fighting was done (at least not in the manga's run), though I guess the events of the Cell Game technically make that void. Can't work and earn a living if you're dead :troll2.

Moving on, the only major thing to really cover is Goku being thrust into the "hero" role. I've already covered that topic here so as to not copy and paste it, I'll just bullet point the short version.

- The Genki-Dama was the only effective way to destroy Boo and Goku was its only wielder.
- Toriyama's words of Gohan not being someone who could carry the plot are true when considering the massive tone and focus shift needed to do so.
- Goku didn't defeat Boo by himself, leaving him dissatisfied and being the cause for him wanting a rematch with Oob.
- Leaving with Oob on what's to him a work trip of sorts makes a lot more sense than taking a kid from his family to fulfill his own desires of a good fight. Goku's methods aren't the same as Piccolo.

One thing left to address would be Goku not fusing with Vegeta to fight Pure Boo when they had the chance. This made sense at the time when prior to the fight Vegeta still felt confident in having a shot at Boo and immediately jumping towards a permanent fusion when there was no other option is indeed jumping the gun. He also explains that, unlike before, Boo is being forced to fight with his own power without absorptions and, unlike Vegeta, he hands the Potara back to Kibitoshin rather than destroying it like Vegeta, suggesting having it as a Plan B may not have been out of Goku's mind.

0315-006.png

That said, Goku's arc in the Boo Arc was essentially more of the same as in the Cell Arc for the most part beyond some new scenarios to show more facets to his philosophies on parenting and death, changing somewhat when the failings of the new generation force him back into action for what was essentially still a team effort with Vegeta and later most of the universe. The conclusion of Goku finding someone he can turn into his successor and use as a great sparring partner when Gohan and Goten's own personal motivations have dashed those options makes for a good ending to the story of Goku's life in him passing the torch....until later material would ruin that aspect and many more.

I mentioned in Part 2 that there were some interesting similarities between the Saiyans and Nietzschen philosophy. I'd say most of that is worth saving for a Vegeta analysis, however, as some aspects of it are very fitting with his character.

Another part I wasn't able to fit in earlier was the nature vs nurture aspect of his character. Whilst his head injury was notable in changing his Saiyan nature, it didn't entirely remove it when he still presented many signs comparable with the standard Saiyan in the early arcs and his genetic instincts started to become stronger as of his battle with Vegeta. That said, I'd say nurture trumps it in defining Goku's character as he at several points goes directly against his instinctive motivations in favour of rationality, truly defining him as someone not governed by his birthright.

So, how do I view Goku's character overall? Upon closer analysis, it's apparent Goku does grow very significantly throughout each arc when it comes to his knowledge, maturity over his emotions, bonds with others and many more aspects. He overall has a more consistent arc than many other members of the cast and even removing power as an attribute, has a lot of reason to remain in the spotlight for most of the series' run until at least the end of the Cell Arc. Seeing him mature into a father and how that part of his life affects his outlook is interesting within the series' status of a Battle Shonen as very few others deal with the protagonist's marriage or fatherhood until some timeskip finale. I wouldn't quite say Goku is top tier amongst Shonen protagonists, what depth and nuances he has still paling in comparison to someone like Yabuki Joe or Himura Kenshin, but he's indeed someone who's growth and multi-facets bring him close to those ranks. If giving him some arbitrary score as in the character analysis thread, I'll say a bare minimum of a solid 7/10.

Next time, either a thread on his Super flanderisationp characterisation or an analysis of Vegeta. I'll let those interested in this type of thread decide.
 

Keedounan

Elite
Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2016
Messages
5,276
Age
26
Talking about his characterisation in Super seems to be the logical next move, as on one note, you get completely done in dealing with Goku and we can get a direct comparison to see where the writers got his character wrong.
 

Future Warrior

Elite
Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2015
Messages
5,954
Age
22
Good analysis as always.

I still disagree with the idea that Goku was justified in breaking the potara earrings and was only doing it for his own motivations, regardless of how confident he was that he can beat him on his own. Boo was such a threat that he blew up the earth without a second thought, let alone capable of destroying all of existence in due time. This seems like another case of him putting his pride over what would seemingly be the most rational decision, as he himself had said that he'd rather rely on himself than on others. Any other battle shonen protagonist (save for the Goku rip-offs) would have likely resorted to the potara without a second thought. That isn't to say I think this was out of character for him to make such a decision, as this case is similar to his arrogance in wanting to defeat Piccolo in a tournament setting. This is completely in line with DB's tone and in fact something I appreciate AT for doing, as it separates the series from being yet another typical save the day story in the same vain as Marvel or DC, something that it was never meant to be from the beginning.

Of course, Goku is certainly not above accepting the help of others when an opponent is so powerful that there is simply nothing he can do to stop him. As I've said in another thread before, as with real life people a persons decision is entirely based on the circumstances one is placed in. He is both selfish and selfless.

Also, I think it was a bit strange that you didn't include the part where not just Gohan and Vegeta, but Goku were treating the Majin Boo situation as somewhat of a contest while they were in the spaceship, not caring for Kaioshin's warnings. I noticed a lot of the moments where Goku's selfishness is taking place, you try to rectify by giving a justifiable reason for why he was making such a decision when the only explanation that was given directly by the series itself and the only one that should be accepted was that he just wants to fight strong opponents. This was my main issue with your reasoning for why Goku chose not to destroy Gero when he had the chance. His motivation was in no way entirely different from Tenshinhan's or Vegeta's.

I'm more interested in seeing your analysis of Vegeta, but Keedounan does make a good point that it would be more logical to continue with Super's representation of Goku's character. Honestly, just do what feels more convenient.
 

Captain Cadaver

Zeta Elite
Retired Staff
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
27,967
Keedounan said:
Talking about his characterisation in Super seems to be the logical next move, as on one note, you get completely done in dealing with Goku and we can get a direct comparison to see where the writers got his character wrong.
There would still be GT Goku to cover, even if to a far lesser extent. My plan for GT was to make up for the drop in content by covering Goku, Vegeta and possibly Gohan in the same thread after doing individual character threads for each.

Future Warrior said:
I still disagree with the idea that Goku was justified in breaking the potara earrings and was only doing it for his own motivations, regardless of how confident he was that he can beat him on his own. Boo was such a threat that he blew up the earth without a second thought, let alone capable of destroying all of existence in due time.
Well, Goku did leave the Potara intact, possibly as a Plan B. If anything, Vegeta's pride is more to blame for removing that option.
They could have indeed used fusion, but considering they had yet to test Boo's ability, Goku didn't know SS3's weakness and not estimating Boo's full power, there was no need to rush to a permanent fusion immediately.

This seems like another case of him putting his pride over what would seemingly be the most rational decision, as he himself had said that he'd rather rely on himself than on others.
I'd agree that Goku was thinking of his own motivations here, but wouldn't say he was thinking irrationally. Even though he's prideful when it comes to battle, he clearly knows his limits such as quitting against Cell and making it apparent Gohan was their only hope. Had he knew both Boo's full power and SS3's Ki drain, I doubt he'd have been as sure on his decision as he was.

Also, I think it was a bit strange that you didn't include the part where not just Gohan and Vegeta, but Goku were treating the Majin Boo situation as somewhat of a contest while they were in the spaceship, not caring for Kaioshin's warnings.
I'd say it's a similar case to in the Cell Arc in how the characters seemingly backtrack on the idea of not stopping a threat before it happens. Goku can be motivated by his own self interests but if the situation proves too much, he'd realise that isn't the best option, his fight with Cell being a good example.
Also, the events prior to entering the spaceship gave Goku some reasoning for not taking it too seriously yet. Shin painted a clear picture that Dabura was the best Babidi had and his movements showed Goku he was likely an opponent the Saiyans could handle 1 V 1. Taking anyone lower than him seriously would be unnecessary.

I noticed a lot of the moments where Goku's selfishness is taking place, you try to rectify by giving a justifiable reason for why he was making such a decision when the only explanation that was given directly by the series itself and the only one that should be accepted was that he just wants to fight strong opponents. This was my main issue with your reasoning for why Goku chose not to destroy Gero when he had the chance. His motivation was in no way entirely different from Tenshinhan's or Vegeta's.
Except Goku did offer an additional reasoning for his action. If that was his pure motivation, he'd simply say that he just wanted to fight the androids.

For many of his situations, whilst primarily in his self-interest, I see there as being other factors important to take into account with both the context and his prior actions that make them far less one-dimensional. Goku is indeed mainly motivated by the desire to fight strong opponents, but there are many instances where he can either be influenced by other factors when it comes to the specifics of performing them or go against his main motivation. I don't disagree that many instances are ones where his desire to fight influences his decision, but almost all of them are far less black and white than the fanbase's majority tend to believe.
 
Top