Comparison Shots

Power Level Guy · Feb 25, 2025

These three have some strong resemblance.

I'd say this...

(Goku > 19) > (Freeza > KHH) > (Raditz > KHH)

This proves 50% Freeza, or whatever percentage he may be here, is very, very strong.

How so foolish the Daizenshuu is once again making 50% Freeza at 60 million while the KHH is as well.

KHH is only 74% of Raditz (if Raditz is 1,250) and if KKx20 KHH was 60 million and there's no way Freeza is less than 80 million here.

This is a big deal.

There's really no other way to argue this IMO...

Warmmedown · Feb 25, 2025

Freeza there struggles more than Raditz or Goku. He makes noises and has 2+ panels of holding it back. The others do it in one panel and with none of the struggling noises.

Goku x20 needs to be close to Freeza's level to be able to push him back with ki and be quick enough to land uncontested hits on him. Even against Vegeta (kkx2), he arguably didn't do what he does to Freeza.

So Goku can't be much behind Freeza there, and then the KHH can be take him to Freeza's level. Unless you think the other way, which is that Goku was already near enough to Freeza's level to land those hits and then his KHH should take him above Freeza, so Freeza must have powered up to block it. But it could be that during such a big kaioken, the KHH multiplier goes down due to the effort of the kaioken (the KHH would need to be a lot weaker than normal though).

Power Level Guy · Feb 25, 2025

Warmmedown said:
Freeza there struggles more than Raditz or Goku. He makes noises and has 2+ panels of holding it back.

Freeza struggles because the duration of the Kamehameha is far longer than the other two's duration's attacks. The way Freeza initially handles it is superior to the detonation Raditz is experiencing. But it's likely the detonation adds a bit more pop than the initial landing...

Warmmedown said:
Goku x20 needs to be close to Freeza's level to be able to push him back with ki and be quick enough to land uncontested hits on him.

That seems to suggest that Freeza wasn't going all out at 50% as the anime suggests and Freeza does seem to do a power-up to contest the KHH as well as @Kyo has pointed out.

Warmmedown said:
Even against Vegeta (kkx2), he arguably didn't do what he does to Freeza.

Freeza seems to be caught off guard and immediately is able to quite easily avoid KKx20 Goku's follow up strike.

Warmmedown said:
But it could be that during such a big kaioken, the KHH multiplier goes down due to the effort of the kaioken (the KHH would need to be a lot weaker than normal though).

Yeah, I think we can make the case for a small multiplier being added to KKx3 Kamehameha, but I think max powered Kaiokens don't have any amp. That's the thing that seems to make sense numerically from what I'm seeing.

Warmmedown · Feb 25, 2025

Surely the duration is higher because he struggles to handle it, which allows Goku to keep pushing his ki at him? Raditz can detonate and negate the KHH instantly, because he's adequately strong enough to do so.

Alright, I had a look and there's that follow up dodge in the manga that wasn't in the anime. To me that just makes it the same as Goku vs Vegeta, where Vegeta was caught off-guard and then was able to dodge and also counter (which could suggest a smaller gap than Freeza using his dodge to get far away, as if he knows he can't manage a counter) after the initial surprise. So it supports Freeza only being around 67,500,000 at most, if Gokux20 is 60,000,000 (based on Gokux2 being 16000+ vs Vegeta).
So yeh I guess he's above 60M, but idk about 80M.

It's also possible Goku is already strained from kkx10 and getting beat up. So the guidebook's x20KHH is 60M (due to still having some KHH multiplier), but the kaiokenx20 punches were less than 60M, because his base isn't 3,000,000 any more.

Power Level Guy · Feb 25, 2025

Warmmedown said:
Surely the duration is higher because he struggles to handle it,

No, the duration is solely determine by the amount of ki put into it by the user. Think about Cell vs Gohan’s Kamehameha clash and how extended that was. Now compare it to Goku’s Kamehameha versus Raditz. See the difference? So when the duration of the blast is longer, it becomes more and more dangerous. Which makes sense.

Warmmedown said:
Raditz can detonate and negate the KHH instantly, because he's adequately strong enough to do so.

I don’t think the opponent can control the detonation. How detonation occurs is interesting to think about though, I haven’t gotten that far yet.

Warmmedown said:
So yeh I guess he's above 60M, but idk about 80M.

Well, you are forgetting that Freeza (vs Kamehameha) > Freeza (vs KKx20 Goku).

Goku seems to indicate that Freeza goes beyond 50% power to combat the blast.

Warmmedown said:
It's also possible Goku is already strained from kkx10 and getting beat up. So the guidebook's x20KHH is 60M (due to still having some KHH multiplier), but the kaiokenx20 punches were less than 60M, because his base isn't 3,000,000 any more.

That’s possible for sure, but as I said, these two comparison shots seem to provide that Kamehameha is only around 75% of Freeza. Which radically changes the game.

Kyo · Feb 26, 2025

Warmmedown said:
Alright, I had a look and there's that follow up dodge in the manga that wasn't in the anime.

It's in the anime. The animation and sound design (especially in Kai) is misleading as to what's happening there, but it's a dodge.

Hector · Feb 26, 2025

Power Level Guy said:
These three have some strong resemblance.

I'd say this...

(Goku > 19) > (Freeza > KHH) > (Raditz > KHH)

This proves 50% Freeza, or whatever percentage he may be here, is very, very strong.

How so foolish the Daizenshuu is once again making 50% Freeza at 60 million while the KHH is as well.

KHH is only 74% of Raditz (if Raditz is 1,250) and if KKx20 KHH was 60 million and there's no way Freeza is less than 80 million here.

This is a big deal.

There's really no other way to argue this IMO...

On the other hand, Goku expected that KHH to take out or at least do damage to 50% Freeza. So maybe it's actually stronger than 50% Freeza and Freeza powered up right before catching it.

Power Level Guy · Feb 26, 2025

Hector said:
On the other hand, Goku expected that KHH to take out or at least do damage to 50% Freeza. So maybe it's actually stronger than 50% Freeza and Freeza powered up right before catching it.

You’ll lose the 50x multiplier this way.

It’ll end up being 60x or so. Remember we are restrained by the SSJ boost here.

I mean, it might be more accurate but you’ll lose the whole fandom on this one.

KKx 20 Goku 150
50% Freeza 160
KKx 20 KHH 200
Powered up Freeza 275

Something like that would be great but it can’t work

Hector · Feb 26, 2025

Power Level Guy said:
You’ll lose the 50x multiplier this way.

It’ll end up being 60x or so. Remember we are restrained by the SSJ boost here.

So what? If evidence shows 60x, let's go with 60x.

Power Level Guy · Feb 26, 2025

Hector said:
So what? If evidence shows 60x, let's go with 60x.

KKx 20 Goku 150
50% Freeza 160
KKx 20 KHH 200
Powered up Freeza 275

What do you think?

I think SSJ needs to be 100x multiplier to make this chain work probably.

Hector · Feb 26, 2025

Power Level Guy said:
KKx 20 Goku 150
50% Freeza 160
KKx 20 KHH 200
Powered up Freeza 275

What do you think?

I think SSJ needs to be 100x multiplier to make this chain work probably.

If 50% Freeza is 160, FP Freeza is 320.

Power Level Guy · Feb 26, 2025

Hector said:
If 50% Freeza is 160, FP Freeza is 320.

He can’t be. That’s what I was saying. Oh damn it’s not only the SSJ multiplier it’s Freeza’s own statements.
50% Freeza needs to be > Kamehameha but powered up Freeza needs to be above it even more. It’s the only way bro or we will run into numerical possibilities.

GSM123 · Feb 26, 2025

The difference between the Kamehameha's definitely muddies things here. Raditz contains the explosion, while Freeza is engulfed by it.

Like I really don't know what we're supposed to make of Freeza here. Everybody says it didn't do anything but Freeza looks genuinely worried. He says it was a close call and that it hurt.

Hector · Feb 26, 2025

Power Level Guy said:
He can’t be. That’s what I was saying. Oh damn it’s not only the SSJ multiplier it’s Freeza’s own statements.
50% Freeza needs to be > Kamehameha but powered up Freeza needs to be above it even more. It’s the only way bro or we will run into numerical possibilities.

Have we totally abandoned the idea of the SSJ being an additive?

Power Level Guy · Feb 26, 2025

GSM123 said:
The difference between the Kamehameha's definitely muddies things here. Raditz contains the explosion, while Freeza is engulfed by it.

I’ve thought it through now. The difference makes perfect sense.

The Kamehamehas are completely different. One is a typical Kamehameha, the other is a Kamehameha that has had all of Goku’s Ki dumped into.

While the Kamehameha is about the same level of power in regards to ratio to its opponent, one is far larger than the other. Because it’s more of that blast.

Power Level Guy · Feb 26, 2025

Hector said:
Have we totally abandoned the idea of the SSJ being an additive?

Additive doesn’t work, that’s been long established. It’s 2025, not 2005.

GSM123 · Feb 26, 2025

What if Raditz vs KHH wasn't as long because Raditz was strong enouhg to overpower it right away? Meanwhile Freeza had to struggle for a minute before overpowering it.

Or maybe both scenes last the same amount of time, but Freeza's is slowed down for dramatic effect.

Power Level Guy · Feb 26, 2025

GSM123 said:
What if Raditz vs KHH wasn't as long because Raditz was strong enouhg to overpower it right away?

It doesn't work like that. It's either a continuous stream or it's not. Replace SPC with Raditz and give him the same superiority. SSJ2 Gohan's KHH last a really long time, Raditz would have been burnt up in that situation, despite having the same power advantage.

GSM123 said:
Meanwhile Freeza had to struggle for a minute before overpowering it.

Freeza initially stops it dead in it's tracks. Look at his body positioning, it's closer to Goku vs 19 than Raditz vs KHH. Raditz is violently thrown back, Freeza is more bracing himself.

Put it this way. Freeza isn't really moved an inch back at all. That can't possibly happen without a sizable advantage in power here.

GSM123 said:
Or maybe both scenes last the same amount of time, but Freeza's is slowed down for dramatic effect.

It's not because the KHH Raditz deals with instantly detonates, whereas Freeza's KHH goes on and on and on.

GSM123 · Feb 26, 2025

Power Level Guy said:
It doesn't work like that. It's either a continuous stream or it's not. Replace SPC with Raditz and give him the same superiority. SSJ2 Gohan's KHH last a really long time, Raditz would have been burnt up in that situation, despite having the same power advantage.

It's always a continuous stream, only that Raditz managed to flat out counter it.

Power Level Guy said:
Freeza initially stops it dead in it's tracks. Look at his body positioning, it's closer to Goku vs 19 than Raditz vs KHH. Raditz is violently thrown back, Freeza is more bracing himself.

Put it this way. Freeza isn't really moved an inch back at all. That can't possibly happen without a sizable advantage in power here.

I think you focus too much on Freeza stopping it but not enough on what happens after. It blows up on his face and he's all dusted up. That means the blast got past his defense and he was engulfed on the explosion.

Power Level Guy said:
It's not because the KHH Raditz deals with instantly detonates, whereas Freeza's KHH goes on and on and on.

Every Dragon Ball fight happens in an instant, and with comics you never know if the next panel is 1 second later or 1 hour later. The details are just slowed down for us to see.

Power Level Guy · Feb 26, 2025

GSM123 said:
It's always a continuous stream, only that Raditz managed to flat out counter it.

No. Typically the continous stream ends quickly. Other times the fighter has a longer duration for the continuous stream. Are you arguing that Gohan vs Cell's Kamehameha battle was the same length as Raditz vs the KHH?

GSM123 said:
I think you focus too much on Freeza stopping it but not enough on what happens after. It blows up on his face and he's all dusted up. That means the blast got past his defense and he was engulfed on the explosion.

I've accounted for a variety of variables. You are struggling with accepting duration as a variable.

GSM123 said:
Every Dragon Ball fight happens in an instant, and with comics you never know if the next panel is 1 second later or 1 hour later. The details are just slowed down for us to see.

The manga and the anime both depict it as longer. Ki blasts and ki battles have various lengths of time they occur, they are not all the same.

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