Are we sure Goku wasn't using his match level on Gohan?

SSJ2 · Thursday at 3:42 PM

Dude was trying to skewer Goku and evidently closed the gap by doing so. Goku had enough of it and performs one of the most vicious one shots we've seen.

He's not holding back there.

Power Level Guy · Thursday at 3:57 PM

SSJ2 said:
He's not holding back there.

Yeah man. The idea we are going to use match level to assume Goku is holding back constantly is madness. That’s a one time thing.

Devil Man got friggin implanted into a wall. That gap can be huge there.

SSJ2 · Thursday at 4:03 PM

Realistically I can see that being a 2x gap given the amount of force there.

Papasmurf · Thursday at 4:14 PM

GSM123 said:
Does he tell Kuririn something else?

Technically he never says he would use FP, he just said "Yeah!" when Kuririn says he'd never forgive him if he held back :troll

GSM123 · Thursday at 5:48 PM

Papasmurf said:
Technically he never says he would use FP, he just said "Yeah!" when Kuririn says he'd never forgive him if he held back

That totally shoots down the theory then lol

Hector · Friday at 2:46 AM

Power Level Guy said:
Always assume full power, never assume suppressed levels.

Also Goku said, Maybe I overdid it a little, which implies he didn't go full power.

Power Level Guy · Friday at 4:56 AM

Hector said:
Also Goku said, Maybe I overdid it a little, which implies he didn't go full power.

That implies he did use full power

Also Gohan notes no new upgraded power when he fights Goku.

Goku didn’t use full power against Gohan either then?

Hector · Friday at 7:55 AM

Power Level Guy said:
That implies he did use full power

I overdid it a little means he could've overdone it more.

Power Level Guy · Friday at 8:13 AM

Hector said:
I overdid it a little means he could've overdone it more.

No I overdid it a little means I didn’t need to go this hard to accomplish the task I set out.

ahill1 · Saturday at 12:20 AM

Eh always assume full power, sure... But that's considering there is no other evidence to point out that they held back. Since Toriyama in the 22nd Budokai painted Tao Pai Pai as someone who couldn't be defeated by Yamcha, as Ten was in disbelief that Goku did that unless it was luck, having fought Yamcha already... Plus, Tsuru's statement that he "finally realized how Goku indeed defeated Tao Pai Pai" when Goku showed his "full match level" when defeating Kuririn...

So we have Kuririn and Yamcha confident that they would defeat Goku. They had seen Goku from the Baba tournament. No evidence until then Goku held back, so Kuririn and Yamcha >> post Karin Goku.

The aforementioned statements though, implying Yamcha and Kuririn may not have surpassed Tao Pai Pai, could be seen as evidence that Goku didn't show his true power in the Baba tournament... Redirecting Yamcha and Kuririn's confidence as based off a suppressed level of post Karin training Goku... Which isn't a baseless assumption imo, as there are fair implications for Tao Pai Pai being > Yamcha and Kuririn.

It just depends on whatever angle one takes. Like @Papasmurf said, Toriyama made that sequence ambiguous, to the point there are valid implications on both sides. I'm fine assuming Goku held back in the Baba Tournament compared to what he used to defeat Tao, therein having full power post Karin Goku > Tao Pai Pai > Yamcha/Kuririn (22nd) > Goku (level he used in the Baba tournament). I'm totally fine with whoever gives precedence to the implications of Kuririn and Yamcha being >> post Karin Goku and Tao, as well.

But OP's premise can't be ruled out as logical angle to take, it is a valid take. That 22nd Budokai saga had statements revolving around Tao's strength, which can be reconciliate as a case of Goku holding back in the Baba Tournament, a method that "makes everything fit".... And King Chappa would, therefore, be a big threat to the "holding back" Baba Tournament Goku, which is the level Roshi and Yamcha, when commenting on the toughness of Chappa as a match up, would base their statements on.

Power Level Guy · Saturday at 8:55 AM

ahill1 said:
Eh always assume full power, sure... But that's considering there is no other evidence to point out that they held back. Since Toriyama in the 22nd Budokai painted Tao Pai Pai as someone who couldn't be defeated by Yamcha, as Ten was in disbelief that Goku did that unless it was luck, having fought Yamcha already... Plus, Tsuru's statement that he "finally realized how Goku indeed defeated Tao Pai Pai" when Goku showed his "full match level" when defeating Kuririn...

So we have Kuririn and Yamcha confident that they would defeat Goku. They had seen Goku from the Baba tournament. No evidence until then Goku held back, so Kuririn and Yamcha >> post Karin Goku.

The aforementioned statements though, implying Yamcha and Kuririn may not have surpassed Tao Pai Pai, could be seen as evidence that Goku didn't show his true power in the Baba tournament... Redirecting Yamcha and Kuririn's confidence as based off a suppressed level of post Karin training Goku... Which isn't a baseless assumption imo, as there are fair implications for Tao Pai Pai being > Yamcha and Kuririn.

It just depends on whatever angle one takes. Like @Papasmurf said, Toriyama made that sequence ambiguous, to the point there are valid implications on both sides. I'm fine assuming Goku held back in the Baba Tournament compared to what he used to defeat Tao, therein having full power post Karin Goku > Tao Pai Pai > Yamcha/Kuririn (22nd) > Goku (level he used in the Baba tournament). I'm totally fine with whoever gives precedence to the implications of Kuririn and Yamcha being >> post Karin Goku and Tao, as well.

But OP's premise can't be ruled out as logical angle to take, it is a valid take. That 22nd Budokai saga had statements revolving around Tao's strength, which can be reconciliate as a case of Goku holding back in the Baba Tournament, a method that "makes everything fit".... And King Chappa would, therefore, be a big threat to the "holding back" Baba Tournament Goku, which is the level Roshi and Yamcha, when commenting on the toughness of Chappa as a match up, would base their statements on.

You’ve made an excellent argument. I can go on and on about the nuance and plausibility of your claims.

However, I intend to stress test it.

Does your methodology apply to Roshi as well? Roshi didn’t think he was completely surpassed by Post Korin Goku.

How do you handle that with this mentality?

Animelover5487 · Saturday at 9:07 AM

Power Level Guy said:
You’ve made an excellent argument. I can go on and on about the nuance and plausibility of your claims.

However, I intend to stress test it.

Does your methodology apply to Roshi as well? Roshi didn’t think he was completely surpassed by Post Korin Goku.

How do you handle that with this mentality?

Maybe because of Roshi's max power form

Power Level Guy · Saturday at 9:27 AM

Animelover5487 said:
Maybe because of Roshi's max power form

It’s possible. But is Korin keeping up with his max power form too? What power is Korin referencing?

Animelover5487 · Saturday at 9:44 AM

Power Level Guy said:
It’s possible. But is Korin keeping up with his max power form too? What power is Korin referencing?

Either that or the Roshi that climbed his tower when he was younger. Actually that sounds more plausible since Roshi at his peak when he was young > his 22nd self.

Power Level Guy · Saturday at 1:59 PM

Animelover5487 said:
Either that or the Roshi that climbed his tower when he was younger. Actually that sounds more plausible since Roshi at his peak when he was young > his 22nd self.

Yeah that’s what I think for Korin, but how many years ago was that?

Also why would Roshi be comparing his previous self?

And isn’t Young Roshi Max > Korin Trained Roshi?

GSM123 · Saturday at 2:54 PM

It should be young Roshi. This makes sense with Goku >= Gohan and Prime Gohan >= Roshi (When he trained Gohan).

The idea I'm feeling here is that this is the prime Roshi. I wonder if Gohan used to be stronger back then?

Papasmurf · Saturday at 3:21 PM

GSM123 said:
It should be young Roshi. This makes sense with Goku >= Gohan and Prime Gohan >= Roshi (When he trained Gohan).

The idea I'm feeling here is that this is the prime Roshi. I wonder if Gohan used to be stronger back then?

I think Gohan isn't that old considering he was taught at the same time as Ox King. He could easily just have been only in his 60s or so when he died. Roshi would've still been an old ass man.

GSM123 · Saturday at 3:30 PM

Papasmurf said:
I think Gohan isn't that old considering he was taught at the same time as Ox King. He could easily just have been only in his 60s or so when he died. Roshi would've still been an old ass man.

Gohan is officially hundreds of years younger than Roshi. That's why I said "Roshi (When he trained Gohan)", he's definitely the old Roshi we know at this point, but coincidentally he's as strong as he was when he climbed Karin's tower.

I'm thinking this might not be a coincidence, and Roshi had kept his strength until very recently.

SSJ2 · Saturday at 3:34 PM

GSM123 said:
Gohan is officially hundreds of years younger than Roshi. That's why I said "Roshi (When he trained Gohan)", he's definitely the old Roshi we know at this point, but coincidentally he's as strong as he was when he climbed Karin's tower.

I'm thinking this might not be a coincidence, and Roshi had kept his strength until very recently.

Would be pretty odd for his strength to fall off a cliff in a 10 year time span.

GSM123 · Saturday at 3:36 PM

SSJ2 said:
Would be pretty odd for his strength to fall off a cliff in a 10 year time span.

I mean recently as in, 50 years or more.

Are we sure Goku wasn't using his match level on Gohan?

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