Are we sure Goku wasn't using his match level on Gohan?

GSM123 said:

I mean recently as in, 50 years or more.

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Yeah, like what happened here?

Presumably Roshi can keep up with Son Gohan and when did Gohan get trained? 20-40 years ago I'd say? If Gohan is 60 and Ox King is how old?

Why did Roshi's power drop off of a cliff?

Power Level Guy said:

Yeah, like what happened here?

Presumably Roshi can keep up with Son Gohan and when did Gohan get trained? 20-40 years ago I'd say? If Gohan is 60 and Ox King is how old?

Why did Roshi's power drop off of a cliff?

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Gohan's also been dead a while. Probably at least 5 years prior to the start of the series.

Power Level Guy said:

Presumably Roshi can keep up with Son Gohan and when did Gohan get trained? 20-40 years ago I'd say? If Gohan is 60 and Ox King is how old?

Why did Roshi's power drop off of a cliff?

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Gohan is 100. Roshi hasn't had any students since and his semi retired.

GSM123 said:

Gohan is 100. Roshi hasn't had any students since and his semi retired.

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Gohan is 100 years old?

Power Level Guy said:

Gohan is 100 years old?

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90ish, just confirmed. Daizenshuu 7 says he was born year 658 and Toriyama himself said he died 2 years before BoDB.

Source?

Papasmurf said:

Source?

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Yeah link us to the info @GSM123

Power Level Guy said:

You’ve made an excellent argument. I can go on and on about the nuance and plausibility of your claims.

However, I intend to stress test it.

Does your methodology apply to Roshi as well? Roshi didn’t think he was completely surpassed by Post Korin Goku.

How do you handle that with this mentality?

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Well, Roshi would be also taking into account the [hypothetical... It's a theory] non-FP Goku there. Following this line of thinking, Kuririn and Yamcha didn't surpass post Karin Goku.

As for Roshi, it's interesting because at least according to VIZ, Tsuru said that "now he realizes how Goku indeed defeated Tao Pai Pai" when Goku defeated Kuririn — let's call that his 22nd Budokai match level and his previous serious level post Karin... And Roshi made the statement about "I think I might have lost my position" along with Tsuru's on Tao as well... So maybe, 22nd Roshi ~ Tao... 22 match level Goku (defeating Kuririn) ~ battle level post Karin Goku (used vs Tao), and the battle level being the real gear unlocked by Goku. You might think it'd make his gains underwhelming in those 3 years, yeah.... But we know he got a lot stronger, which would hold true the same way. In different proportions, but still.

ahill1 said:

Well, Roshi would be also taking into account the [hypothetical... It's a theory] non-FP Goku there.

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No, I’m talking about the “Roshi might have been surpassed” similar awkward lines that occur.

I’m doing a consistency check because if you apply this logic to Tao being retroactively made to be stronger, how will you handle Roshi?

@Power Level Guy @Papasmurf his death date. For birth date just check the Daizenshuu.

Power Level Guy said:

No, I’m talking about the “Roshi might have been surpassed” similar awkward lines that occur.

I’m doing a consistency check because if you apply this logic to Tao being retroactively made to be stronger, how will you handle Roshi?

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Which scene specifically? You mean Karin saying Goku has likely surpassed Roshi?

Well, who knows how strong was when he was fine training with Karin. Since it's somewhat implied Rosh as a young disciple who fought Piccolo alongside Mutaito, when young, was likely > the one from the 22nd Budokai.

Or do you mean another statement?

ahill1 said:

ou mean Karin saying Goku has likely surpassed Roshi?

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No, Goku one shots the Mummy, who Roshi thinks is fast and only says that he might be surpassed when Goku should be able to currently one shot him.

ahill1 said:

Since it's somewhat implied Rosh as a young disciple who fought Piccolo alongside Mutaito, when young, was likely > the one from the 22nd Budokai.

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Are Roshi and Korin referring to Prime Roshi? Or Post Korin Roshi? Is Prime Roshi > Post Korin Roshi?

Power Level Guy said:

Are Roshi and Korin referring to Prime Roshi? Or Post Korin Roshi? Is Prime Roshi > Post Korin Roshi?

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Did Roshi really say might in the word for word JP manga tho? He may very well have used that type of uncertain expression, I agree, but I've seen some sentences Herms had translated, like ones expressing uncertainty of some sorts such as "likely"... that when I was double checking the JP raw scans, "likely" wasn't the best word to describe the comment which expressed stronger assuredness — iirc it was old Kaioshin saying base Goku/Gohan Potara would [likely] be plenty vs Boo"... The word was closer to "definitely" iirc.

It's still a little bit different though because Roshi had a clear urgency in defeating Goku, so much so he used unorthodox moves like the hypnosis jus to win.... If Kuririn had recently fight Tao Pai Pai and Kuririn or Yamcha had the slight advantage, then I think it'd be more comparable to the one you were referencing... Like, when we weigh on how much can a comment/comments be fair reasoned to change the scaling, or just be too contestable... Like Freeza implying Goku was the first one to surpass Ginyu is a bs statement that is just totally ignored.

ahill1 said:

Did Roshi really say might in the word for word JP manga tho?

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I’ll have to check but Korin said it as well.

I’m getting the impression that Prime Roshi is Tower Roshi, but that’s probably just me.

GSM123 said:

I’m getting the impression that Prime Roshi is Tower Roshi, but that’s probably just me.

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Yeah me too, but 22nd Roshi goes beyond Tower Roshi by a lot.

Power Level Guy said:

I’ll have to check but Korin said it as well.

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But yeah I get your point. Like, going by the same logic, Roshi would need to have been suppressed vs Goku at the 21st. Honestly though, the prime Roshi might be a thing... But prime Roshi would have been able to one shot the mummy too... Like, The Mummy was said to "might be too much for the Goku from the tournament", so... Which version of Roshi would Roshi have in mind? One that was maybe, but not sure strong enough to one shot The Mummy? Lol.

Still tho, I'd say that statement is weird too. I also think the ones for Tao Pai Pai are. Which is why it's a hypothetical, a perspective... Which like the other one, will have its holes. I think though that the Roshi thing is an easier one to be faced with stronger skepticism given that Roshi was having a hard time in a tournament he wanted to make sure Goku would feel the difference between him and the opponents to the point he even used a kinda lame hypnosis sleeping to win... At least vs Grandpa Gohan, in the Baba tournament, it was an even but quick back and forth, one which Goku wasn't in trouble, like, almost losing to the point it'd be damn stupid if Goku hadn't used full power.

Big Ank said:

But yeah I get your point. Like, going by the same logic, Roshi would need to have been suppressed vs Goku at the 21st. Honestly though, the prime Roshi might be a thing... But prime Roshi would have been able to one shot the mummy too... Like, The Mummy was said to "might be too much for the Goku from the tournament", so... Which version of Roshi would Roshi have in mind? One that was maybe, but not sure strong enough to one shot The Mummy? Lol.

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Yeah, my overall counter-argument here is to force you to be consistent with your logic.

If Tao should be treated this way, then why not Roshi? Which I don't think even you agree with doing this for Roshi. So it's created a break in your chain of logic.