My new Saiyans Saga PL list. Is it good?

Saibaimen: 1,200
-suicide blast: 2,200

Yamcha: 1,350

Krillin: 1,400
-scattering bullet: 2,500 (then splits into five balls of 2,000 each)
-spirit bomb: 25,000

Tenshinhan: 1600
-kikoho: 2,600

Chaozu: 600
-suicide blast: 2,200

Gohan: 1,300
-enraged: 2,400
-massenko: 2,800

Piccolo: 2,000

Nappa: 2,500
-1st power-up (Z-fighters): 3,200
-2nd power-up (Goku): 6,000
-full power: 7,500
-mouth blast: 10,000

Goku: 8,100
-kamehemeha: 10,125
-kaioken: 12,150
-2x kaioken: 16,200
-3x kaioken: 24,300
-3x kaioken/kamehameha: 30,375
-4x kaioken/kamehameha: 40,500
-post beam struggle: 2,500
-spirit bomb: 50,000

Vegeta: 9,000
-more serious: 13,500
-full power: 18,000
-gallick gun: 30,000
-post beam struggle: 5,000
-post power ball: 4,500
-great ape: 45,000
-post transformation: 2,700
-post spirit bomb: 1,800

Yadjirobe: 900

I would move Tenshithans down to 1500 if Piccolo is at 2000. He is definitely much closer to Yamcha then he is to the Namek.

Chaozu's self Destruct > Kuririn's blast since he thought he could kill Nappa after seeing him tank it.

Animelover5487 said:

I would move Tenshithans down to 1500 if Piccolo is at 2000. He is definitely much closer to Yamcha then he is to the Namek.

Chaozu's self Destruct > Kuririn's blast since he thought he could kill Nappa after seeing him tank it.

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Nappa tanked one of the smaller blasts the original blast was split into.

Animelover5487 said:

I would move Tenshithans down to 1500 if Piccolo is at 2000. He is definitely much closer to Yamcha then he is to the Namek.

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Piccolo is actually piss weak in this saga. He's weaker than nearly every ki blast the Z-fighters can muster, he's not much ahead of Tien.

Animelover5487 said:

Chaozu's self Destruct > Kuririn's blast since he thought he could kill Nappa after seeing him tank it.

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Agreed.

But he does have Self Destruct > Scatter Shot (Individual)

Hector said:

-full power: 7,500
-mouth blast: 10,000

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Seems to be quite a large amp. I don't think Nappa can amp this much.

Hector said:

-post beam struggle: 2,500

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I wonder if Goku should be this weak?

Hector said:

-full power: 18,000
-gallick gun: 30,000

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This amp is quite high. You are going to have massive problems in the Namek Saga.

I've discovered that the 1.5x amp for Galick Gun is perfect.

Hector said:

-great ape: 45,000

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This is way too weak, KKx5 can't do ANYTHING to Great Ape Vegeta, this is damn near rivaling.

Oozaru Vegeta is at least 60k if not higher. I might have him at 80k personally.

Hector said:

-post beam struggle: 5,000

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They are not even sure if he's weakened at all. I don't think he's all that weak, he's only taken a few punches and didn't take much damage from the blast at all.

I don't see him being under say 15-16k or so.

Hector said:

-post transformation: 2,700
-post spirit bomb: 1,800

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Enraged Gohan is 2,400, he'd never be able to land a hit on Vegeta at this gap. I think you gotta put Vegeta at 2,500 here.

Post Spirit Bomb, he's still quite strong indeed. He bitch smacks Krillin with ease and Krillin has only taken one hit, although he was severely hurt. 1,800 should be fine, if not 2,000.

You have to include Post-Explosive wave. I think he drops down to 1,500 or so then.

You've done remarkable work though. This is incredibly detailed.

Power Level Guy said:

I wonder if Goku should be this weak?

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King Kai said after the beam struggle that even if Vegeta can't transform, things are still tough for Goku. And as we saw, Goku can still do a regular Kaioken with no problem at this point.

Power Level Guy said:

This amp is quite high. You are going to have massive problems in the Namek Saga.

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Didn't we establish recently that...
20x Kaioken Goku - 45
50% Freeza - 50
20x Kaioken/Kamehameha Goku - 55
Therefore, the kamehemeha when combined with kaioken is about 1.25x. That means that for Vegeta to rival the 3x Kaioken/Kamehameha combo, he needs 1.66x a multiplier for his blast.

Power Level Guy said:

This is way too weak, KKx5 can't do ANYTHING to Great Ape Vegeta, this is damn near rivaling.

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Did he say he can't do anything to him? I recall him just saying he couldn't win.

Power Level Guy said:

I don't see him being under say 15-16k or so.

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So he lost the bulk of his power from making the moon? I think it makes more sense for him to have lost more power from the beating he'd gotten.

Power Level Guy said:

Enraged Gohan is 2,400, he'd never be able to land a hit on Vegeta at this gap. I think you gotta put Vegeta at 2,500 here.

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Why? 2.7k/2.4k is not a "can't touch your opponent" gap.

Hector said:

King Kai said after the beam struggle that even if Vegeta can't transform, things are still tough for Goku. And as we saw, Goku can still do a regular Kaioken with no problem at this point.

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Kaio: “But Son Goku has no strength left. Even without Oozaru, the Saiyan may be more than enough for him. But he’s gotten weaker too! The way he is now, if we could only hit him with the Genki-Dama, we’ll win for sure!!!!”


Yeah, Goku has lost most of his strength. But this is good, it confirms Vegeta is far weaker too.

Chapter: 233 (DBZ 39), P11.3
Goku: “Even if I raise the Kaio-Ken to x5, it still won't have any effect on him!!!!”


People keep using 60k, I think that's probably our best bet here.

Hector said:

Didn't we establish recently that...
20x Kaioken Goku - 45
50% Freeza - 50
20x Kaioken/Kamehameha Goku - 55
Therefore, the kamehemeha when combined with kaioken is about 1.25x. That means that for Vegeta to rival the 3x Kaioken/Kamehameha combo, he needs 1.66x a multiplier for his blast.

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I liked the idea, but it probably doesn't hold up.

You have a tremendous problem with Reecome and 2nd Form Freeza I'd say. A 1.66x multiplier is probably going to be too much.

Also it's probably too much for Android 18 as well...

Hector said:

So he lost the bulk of his power from making the moon? I think it makes more sense for him to have lost more power from the beating he'd gotten.

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Yeah you were right. It seems like he lost more than I had originally thought.

Maybe this?

Vegeta (Post-Galick Gun) 12,000
Vegeta (Post-Power Ball) 6,000
Vegeta (Post-Oozaru) 2,500
Vegeta (Post-Spirit Bomb) 2,500
Vegeta (Post-Explosive Wave) 1,500

What do you think?

Hector said:

Why? 2.7k/2.4k is not a "can't touch your opponent" gap.

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Of course it is. That's literally the gap we use for KKx2 Goku vs Vegeta. C'mon now.

Goku even thinks Gohan's power is above Vegeta's. I think they are equals and Vegeta just outclasses him.

Power Level Guy said:

Kaio: “But Son Goku has no strength left. Even without Oozaru, the Saiyan may be more than enough for him. But he’s gotten weaker too! The way he is now, if we could only hit him with the Genki-Dama, we’ll win for sure!!!!”

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Doesn't King Kai take into consideration that Goku can still do a normal kaioken when he states that? So for Vegeta to be "probably more than enough" he has to be at least 2x Goku's base at this point.

Power Level Guy said:

I liked the idea, but it probably doesn't hold up.

You have a tremendous problem with Reecome and 2nd Form Freeza I'd say. A 1.66x multiplier is probably going to be too much.

Also it's probably too much for Android 18 as well...

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Vegeta doesn't have much time to charge his blasts against Recoome and Eighteen, so we can give those blasts smaller amps. As for 2nd Form Freeza, the gap is massive, so even if Vegeta charged a fully powered blast, it still makes sense that he didn't do any damage.

Power Level Guy said:

Yeah you were right. It seems like he lost more than I had originally thought.

Maybe this?

Vegeta (Post-Galick Gun) 12,000
Vegeta (Post-Power Ball) 6,000
Vegeta (Post-Oozaru) 2,500
Vegeta (Post-Spirit Bomb) 2,500
Vegeta (Post-Explosive Wave) 1,500

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Is it implied anywhere that Vegeta lost a lot of power from making the moon?

Hector said:

Doesn't King Kai take into consideration that Goku can still do a normal kaioken when he states that? So for Vegeta to be "probably more than enough" he has to be at least 2x Goku's base at this point.

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That's a good point.

Hector said:

Vegeta doesn't have much time to charge his blasts against Recoome and Eighteen, so we can give those blasts smaller amps. As for 2nd Form Freeza, the gap is massive, so even if Vegeta charged a fully powered blast, it still makes sense that he didn't do any damage.

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Vegeta 475,000
Blast 791,000

Freeza 1,250,000

That's over 60%... Might still be ok...

Hector said:

Is it implied anywhere that Vegeta lost a lot of power from making the moon?

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He's stated to have lost power.

Hector said:

-great ape: 45,000

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You guys are right about this. I hadn't considered all the options yet. Goku ending right back at his Kkx2 vs Vegeta scenario could definitely warrant such a comment.

I know think 45-50k is probably the right range.

Hector said:

-spirit bomb: 25,000

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I think the Spirit Bomb has to a good deal about Great Ape Vegeta.

Ok, I got it now. Masterpiece.

Yajirobe 1,000
Gohan 1,350
Krillen 1,400
Vegeta (Post Explosive Wave) 1,500
Vegeta (Post Spirit Bomb) 1,800
Enraged Gohan 2,700
Vegeta (Post Oozaru) 3,000
Goku (Post Kamehameha) 3,750
Vegeta (Post Power Ball) 4,500
KKx2 Goku (Post Kamehameha) 7,500
Goku (Full Power) 8,000
Vegeta (Post Galick Gun) 9,000
Kkx2 Goku 16,000
Vegeta 18,000
KKx3 Goku 24,000
KKx3 Kamehameha 27,000
Galick Gun 27,000
Spirit Bomb (Half Power) 30,000
KKx4 Kamehameha 32,000
KKx5 Goku (Hypothetical) 40,000
Oozaru Vegeta 45,000
Spirit Bomb (Full Power) 60,000
Oozaru Vegeta (Full Power, Unseen) 180,000

Animelover5487 said:

Chaozu's self Destruct > Kuririn's blast since he thought he could kill Nappa after seeing him tank it.

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This gets dismissed way too much. Honestly all of our Saiyan Saga gaps are wrong because of stuff like this.

Power Level Guy said:

Ok, I got it now. Masterpiece.

Yajirobe 1,000
Gohan 1,350
Krillen 1,400
Vegeta (Post Explosive Wave) 1,500
Vegeta (Post Spirit Bomb) 1,800
Enraged Gohan 2,700
Vegeta (Post Oozaru) 3,000
Goku (Post Kamehameha) 3,750
Vegeta (Post Power Ball) 4,500
KKx2 Goku (Post Kamehameha) 7,500
Goku (Full Power) 8,000
Vegeta (Post Galick Gun) 9,000
Kkx2 Goku 16,000
Vegeta 18,000
KKx3 Goku 24,000
KKx3 Kamehameha 27,000
Galick Gun 27,000
Spirit Bomb (Half Power) 30,000
KKx4 Kamehameha 32,000
KKx5 Goku (Hypothetical) 40,000
Oozaru Vegeta 45,000
Spirit Bomb (Full Power) 60,000
Oozaru Vegeta (Full Power, Unseen) 180,000

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I see nothing that suggests Vegeta lost that much power from making the power ball.

Hector said:

I see nothing that suggests Vegeta lost that much power from making the power ball.

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How fast is Initial Oozaru Vegeta?

Power Level Guy said:

How fast is Initial Oozaru Vegeta?

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I don't know.

Vegeta’s power loss is very vague. He says he’ll only lose “a little power” making the moon, but he was still strong post KHH that fatigued Goku needed the Genki Dama.

I think P took the best route here. Half it, then half it again, then divide it by 1.5x. You can mix up the order, but it’s pretty much a fact that Vegeta gets 6x weaker (18k —> 3k)

Hector said:

I don't know.

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Is Goku able to ever dodge Oozaru Vegeta?

Power Level Guy said:

Is Goku able to ever dodge Oozaru Vegeta?

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I think this line of thinking is not right when considering a speed up from Oozaru Vegeta. Krillin dodged the Pirate Robot but was subsequently hit right after. I don't believe that constitutes a speed increase. Dodging is quite inconsistent imo.

SSJ2 said:

I think this line of thinking is not right when considering a speed up from Oozaru Vegeta. Krillin dodged the Pirate Robot but was subsequently hit right after. I don't believe that constitutes a speed increase. Dodging is quite inconsistent imo.

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Fair enough. Dodging is indeed inconsistent. Tien dodges Gero’s eye beams.

But let’s see how I can do this. I don’t think you can dodge someone unless there’s a skill deficiency or the person makes it purposefully easy to dodge.

I also think to be able to dodge requires some degree of rivalry.

I don’t think people can dodge attacks 10x superior to them, so I’d say Gero’s eye beams weren’t all that fast.

But then there’s Ssj Trunks ki blast vs Android 18… hmmm

I guess I’ll have to counter with,

When Oozaru Vegeta tail whips KKx2 Goku, why is Goku surprised Vegeta can move that fast? What was Goku’s expectation of Vegeta’s speed prior to that attack?

Ran Fan also dodges a serious Namu... That gap was enormous.

As for Goku's surprise, it could have just as easily taken place after the initial exchange.



The fact that Goku didn't immediately use Kaioken here could suggest he expected Vegeta to be slower than his Base self... It doesn't make sense to withhold Kaioken against someone that powerful. So Vegeta's speed might have taken Goku by surprise so badly that he misjudged how fast he actually was, to the point where even Kaioken wasn't fast enough to dodge. All of this is taking place within a split second. Goku is a master of course, but if his initially judgement was for Vegeta to be that slow, he may not have had time to accurately gauge Vegeta's true speed.

SSJ2 said:

Ran Fan also dodges a serious Namu... That gap was enormous.

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That version of Namu was still afflicted by her charms and his mercy. FP Namu cannot be dodged.

SSJ2 said:

Goku is a master of course, but if his initially judgement was for Vegeta to be that slow, he may not have had time to accurately gauge Vegeta's true speed.

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How slow is “that slow”?