Freeza Saga Experiment

Expected Transformed Freeza: 700
Kamiccolo W/o Weights: 700
Kamiccolo W/ Weights: 550
Freeza (Full Power): 530
Vegeta: 475
Piccolo W/o Weights: 350
Gohan 300
Piccolo W/ Weights 275
Krillen 250



Group vs Freeza Percentage Ratio

Freeza 100
Vegeta 90
Freeza (Initial) 85
Piccolo 66
Gohan 56
Piccolo W/ Weights 52
Krillen 47

This is looking very good. Most people aren't up on this stuff. Vegeta is very explicit that the humans with their strength can help defeat Freeza. Hell, I'd have to check the dialogue, but Vegeta might even think they have a real chance against Expected Transformed Freeza. So that's another discussion to have. But Vegeta against Final Form Freeza says they wouldn't be useful at all. So what does that mean for us?

(Final Form Freeza ~ Zenkai Vegeta > Z-Fighters) >> (1st Form Freeza ~ Vegeta > Z-Fighters)

Vegeta and Freeza should be more ahead of the Z-Fighters the second go around than the first time by a significant margin. And that's coming from Vegeta, someone who only gives credit to people when it's truly earned. Now, it's very possible they are exactly the same ratio, but Vegeta's belief that he is the invincible Super Saiyan is blinding him to reality, which is no doubt at least a factor here. But for me, I rather be safe that sorry. I think you should make the gap bigger, so if that means tightening it up a bit for 1st Form, so be it.

I'll have to work on the Final Form numbers later, but I might bring Vegeta and Initial Form Freeza down a bit to better set up for Future Vegeta having SSJ. Decisions, decisions to be made. This one I'll have to be very precise here because it gets messy quick.

@SSJ2 @Evil Vegeta You guys would probably take interest in this discussion most.

Vegeta must think they have a chance against 2nd Form Freeza if he was taunting him to transform. Numerically it is hard to reconcile though. Vegeta is clearly expecting a Zarbon type boost from Freeza, and at that point it was only himself, Gohan and Krillin. Krillin/Gohan also make it clear that Vegeta is well beyond their level when he goes against 1st Form Freeza.

So you definitely need to have Gohan and Krillin where you have them, but it's hard to justify going higher. But it's very difficult to picture that trio having any chance against hypothetical 2nd Form Freeza.

Gohan thought they might stand a chance/manage something against 1st form Freeza. Vegeta overplayed his hand asking him to transform.

Is there anything that contradicts the fact that the difference between Gohan and Krillin is only 1,125x?

SIAD said:

Is there anything that contradicts the fact that the difference between Gohan and Krillin is only 1,125x?

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That seems to be the earlier spacing from Namek to Guru to Ginyu in Goku I'd say that kind of spacing is fine.

I think by the time they reach Freeza Gohan has more of a 1.2x advantage.

Power Level Guy said:

That seems to be the earlier spacing from Namek to Guru to Ginyu in Goku I'd say that kind of spacing is fine.

I think by the time they reach Freeza Gohan has more of a 1.2x advantage.

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So there's no problem with Gohan being only 1,125 times Krillin's power level when they face Frieza's First Form?

SIAD said:

So there's no problem with Gohan being only 1,125 times Krillin's power level when they face Frieza's First Form?

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1.125x is too small for my liking.

Piccolo W/o Weights > Gohan > Piccolo W/ Weights > Krillin is how I like it.

Let me see the 4 levels from you.

Power Level Guy said:

1.125x is too small for my liking.

Piccolo W/o Weights > Gohan > Piccolo W/ Weights > Krillin is how I like it.

Let me see the 4 levels from you.

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I liked the idea of having:

Piccolo (No weights) = 280,000

Gohan = 262,144

Krillin = 200,000

Freeza First Form (Initial) = 397,500.

The problem is that Nail thought Piccolo would be killed instantly by Freeza First Form. This makes me think of having something like:

Piccolo (No weights) = 228,000

Gohan = 225,000

Krillin = 200,000

How strong is Kamiccolo W/ Weights?

Power Level Guy said:

How strong is Kamiccolo W/ Weights?

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Piccolo (Weighted) has 80% of his Unweighted power.

How easily would Frieza (First Form, Suppressed) have defeated Piccolo (Without Weights)?

SIAD said:

How easily would Frieza (First Form, Suppressed) have defeated Piccolo (Without Weights)?

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Nail is aware of Freeza's full power.

I have Suppressed Freeza at 450k

SIAD said:

Piccolo (Weighted) has 80% of his Unweighted power.

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I'm asking for how strong a Piccolo and Kami fusion would be.

Power Level Guy said:

Nail is aware of Freeza's full power.

I have Suppressed Freeza at 450k



I'm asking for how strong a Piccolo and Kami fusion would be.

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Kamiccolo >= 2x Piccolo (Pre Nail).

SIAD said:

Kamiccolo >= 2x Piccolo (Pre Nail).

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So you have Kamiccolo less than 530k. I think that's wrong. I think Kamiccolo should win.

Power Level Guy said:

So you have Kamiccolo less than 530k. I think that's wrong. I think Kamiccolo should win.

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How do you think Frieza First Form (Suppressed) would fare against Piccolo + Gohan + Krillin?

SIAD said:

How do you think Frieza First Form (Suppressed) would fare against Piccolo + Gohan + Krillin?

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Piccolo seems to imply he can help out those kids against Freeza.

I'm sure the team-up can beat Freeza.

I like the idea of the gap between Gohan and Kuririn being constant until Gohan gets that Zenkai from 2nd form Freeza. Nothing implies they changed, although it would make sense if Gohan's lead increased since he should get a Zenkai from Recoome, but maybe the Zenkai was "absorbed" by the potential unlock boost?

Weighted Kamiccolo being 1.1x 1st form Freeza should be pretty solid. I used to think they could be equals, but looking at the dialogue Kamiccolo should definitely be stronger.

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5, P3.1
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”
Piccolo: “Are you saying that if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?”
Nail: “Th-that’s right…I was overwhelmingly defeated by Freeza, but I should have a good comprehension of his abilities…[ ] So merge with me…! I’m also the only fighting-type Namekian on this planet…[ ] That’s right…Your power will become many times greater…”
Piccolo: “…You’re not lying, are you?”
Nail: “If you think so, you can just go get killed by Freeza…”

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Nail threw that "Might" at first, but then Piccolo asked "I would surpass Freeza?" and Nail straight up said "Yes". This reminds me of Goku/Majin Vegeta vs Kid Gohan, when Vegeta says Goku is defintely > Gohan but then Piccolo says just "Maybe".

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Freeza (1st form, Full Power): 530,000
Kamiccolo (Weighted): 583,000 (1.1x advantage)
Kamiccolo (Unweighted): 728,750 (1.25x boost)

So Piccolo (Pre fusion is):
Weighted: 291,500
Unweighted: 364,3750

Freeza (1st form, suppressed): More than 450,000

So Freeza's power up should be 1.1x... Seems like 1.1x power ups are more common than we think.

GSM123 said:

I like the idea of the gap between Gohan and Kuririn being constant until Gohan gets that Zenkai from 2nd form Freeza. Nothing implies they changed, although it would make sense if Gohan's lead increased since he should get a Zenkai from Recoome, but maybe the Zenkai was "absorbed" by the potential unlock boost?

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That comment by Vegeta is why I implement the change. Vegeta has seen every variation of Guru powered up Krillin/Gohan, but this time, he seems to even further place Gohan ahead.

I don't think Gohan got a zenkai, I think he's already at his pinnacle during the Reecome fight.

GSM123 said:

Weighted Kamiccolo being 1.1x 1st form Freeza should be pretty solid. I used to think they could be equals, but looking at the dialogue Kamiccolo should definitely be stronger.

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I have Kamiccolo at 550k forever, but your analysis is good. Nothing wrong with him being a little more.

Power Level Guy said:

That comment by Vegeta is why I implement the change. Vegeta has seen every variation of Guru powered up Krillin/Gohan, but this time, he seems to even further place Gohan ahead.

I don't think Gohan got a zenkai, I think he's already at his pinnacle during the Reecome fight.

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I don't get it. He's at his pinnacle while his power is actively rising? And Vegeta his hyping his dormant power when he didn't even get a Zenkai?

Power Level Guy said:

I have Kamiccolo at 550k forever, but your analysis is good. Nothing wrong with him being a little more.

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You know, I think 550-560k might be perfect. Maybe Weighted Kamiccolo vs 1st form Freeza would be just like Weighted Nailccolo vs 2nd form Freeza. Piccolo is definitely superior, but the result of the fight could go either way.

GSM123 said:

I don't get it. He's at his pinnacle while his power is actively rising? And Vegeta his hyping his dormant power when he didn't even get a Zenkai?

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For the moment. There's a reason they are only around 13/14k at the moment and then 23k+ after.

The power-up is coming in stages and they can't access until the time is ready.

GSM123 said:

You know, I think 550-560k might be perfect. Maybe Weighted Kamiccolo vs 1st form Freeza would be just like Weighted Nailccolo vs 2nd form Freeza. Piccolo is definitely superior, but the result of the fight could go either way.

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I've stuck with my numbers for quite some time now. I want Nail as an even 5x and Kami as an even 2x.

Krillin 250
Piccolo W/ Weights 275
Gohan 300
Piccolo W/o Weights 350
Kamiccolo W/ Weights 550
Kamiccolo W/o Weights 700
Expected Transformed Freeza 750
2nd Form Freeza 1,060
2nd Form Power Up 1,350
Piccolo W/ Weights 1,375
2nd Form FP 1,600
Piccolo W/o Weights 1,750

Super clean and accurate.