#20 + Z senshi > SSJ Vegeta proves SSJ isn't 50x?

[ahill1]

What do you think?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ironically, i was thinking about making this post, so

 

[ahill1]

If we don't look at it under the "#20 is full of shit", it's possible for the SSJ multiplier to be way less than 50x. I make a list taking into account Gero's statement and ended up with the SSJ multiplier being around 3 ~ 4x. But then, I'd have to increase it to at least 40x by the Boo saga, in order to work with the base kids not far outstripping #18.


SSJ --> 3.3x base (battle against the androids)
SSJ --> 10x (post 1st RoSaT)
SSJ --> 40x (CG and Boo saga)

If you also want to make base > Piccolo implications work, you could have differing multipliers for the kids and the adults so you could have the kids around #18 and, at the same time, not too far off the adults as SSJs.


But first, let's talk about Gero implying that he'd have a shot against Vegeta if absorbing Piccolo (suppressed), Gohan, Kuririn and Tenshinhan.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Eh, I don't really think you can get much from Gero's calculations.

Piccolo's suppressed power is far below his "not even a Super Saiyan" power, but he was still well ahead of everyone else. Gero was under the impression that he was above Piccolo, so I'm not sure how the addition of the others would make that much of a difference.

Piccolo>>Gero w/suppressed Piccolo's energy

Now take that same Gero and add the 3 others to him. If Piccolo was able to embarrass him after having his energy absorbed, would the other 3 really make that much of a difference against someone significantly more powerful than Piccolo?

I don't even think draining the other 3 would've allowed Gero to beat Piccolo. His calculations were pretty ass. Before Piccolo knocks the shit outta him, he thinks draining Piccolo again (he's unaware Piccolo was hiding a lot of power) will allow him to win against Vegeta. So he went from thinking he needed all 4 to believing another helping of Piccolo's energy would be enough. He was just wrong.

 

[ahill1]

Eh, I don't really think you can get much from Gero's calculations.

Piccolo's suppressed power is far below his "not even a Super Saiyan" power, but he was still well ahead of everyone else. Gero was under the impression that he was above Piccolo, so I'm not sure how the addition of the others would make that much of a difference.

Piccolo>>Gero w/suppressed Piccolo's energy

Now take that same Gero and add the 3 others to him. If Piccolo was able to embarrass him after having his energy absorbed, would the other 3 really make that much of a difference against someone significantly more powerful than Piccolo?

I don't even think draining the other 3 would've allowed Gero to beat Piccolo. His calculations were pretty ass. Before Piccolo knocks the shit outta him, he thinks draining Piccolo again (he's unaware Piccolo was hiding a lot of power) will allow him to win against Vegeta. So he went from thinking he needed all 4 to believing another helping of Piccolo's energy would be enough. He was just wrong.

Eh, I got like an hour trying to do numbers and work with said implications and I got a headache lol. Maybe my math logic is just ass and someone better could work with it better.

Here're the statements:


Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P14.7
Context: after seeing that Gohan, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Kuririn had followed him
No.20: “If I collect their energy and add it to my own, I’ll be able to win against Vegeta!”

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P8.2
No.20: “Don’t interfere, he says…Kukkukkuh…Alright, if I drain [Piccolo]'s energy again, then [I’ll win] against Vegeta…”


So he thinks that Suppressed Piccolo + Kuririn, Gohan and Tenshinhan or Supressed Piccolo x2 will allow him to beat Vegeta. It's tough to work with it numerically, but is this a reason to completely throw it out? Piccolo also seemed a bit uneasy with Gero absorbing Piccolo again, saying "won't you just be giving him more energy?".

It might be hard to see Gero beating Vegeta if he absorbs suppressed Piccolo again, but yet that's what he said, so I think it's better to work with the prospect that adding another amount of that suppressed energy of green man would allow him such a thing.

 

[ahill1]

If Piccolo was able to embarrass him after having his energy absorbed, would the other 3 really make that much of a difference against someone significantly more powerful than Piccolo?

Maybe that's also an implication that the other three aren't just complete garbage, and somewhat comparable to the base Saiyans from the androids saga.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I reminded once i saw this theory he can see their reserves. It has a whole because Gero couldn't calculate Piccolo's Full Power, though. Perhaps AT doesn't give a damn to the 50x. Btw, @Ahill, would you mind showing me numbers for the Base Saiyans, humans, Freeza, Androids and the SSJs with that 3-4x multiplier?

 

[ahill1]

I was trying to work all the implications, but I kind didn't manage. It's a headache lol. I won't display the base Saiyans numbers, just the Saiyans', Piccolo's and the humans' (plus Gero).

Yamcha 25,000,000
Tenshinhan 35,000,000
Kuririn 50,000,000
Son Gohan 80,000,000
Suppressed Piccolo 165,000,000
Gero 200,000,000
Gero (+Yamcha) 225,000,000
Gero (+Vegeta's blast) 285,000,000
Gero (+suppressed Piccolo) 450,000,000
Piccolo (true power) 525,000,000
Vegeta SSJ 660,000,000

Gero (+supp Piccolo and humans/Gohan--hypothetical or absorbing suppressed Piccolo again) 615,000,000 --> still not quite on Vegeta's level but still close enough to pull off a vcitory through absorptions.

I feel suppressed Piccolo should be around the sum of Gohan, Kuririn and Tenshinhan's powers, considering Gero's conclusion about how he'd compare to Vegeta was the same whether he absorbed suppressed Piccolo again, or added the rest of the Z senshi's powers.

The higher problem is that Gero seems pretty low on the list (I have Namek Goku at 250,000,000)... I mean, post Yamcha Gero still lower than Namek Goku? Ehh. But I can't fit all those implications if I put Gero pre absorptions where I normally would (at SSJ Trunks' level).

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Looking at an array of things based on how Gero calculated powers just never lead me to believe he was particularly good at it. I can't think of anything he's been accurate on aside from knowing Piccolo was the next strongest behind Vegeta. Has this guy gotten anything right?

Piccolo said the power Gero sapped was nothing, but if absorbing that same amount of power would've somehow made Gero>Vegeta and Piccolo, then it doesn't make much sense. The difference between Gero and Piccolo looked significant enough in battle; a portion of that same true power making Gero suddenly leap over Super Saiyan Vegeta looks pretty farce. The same could apply to Piccolo's true power.

I just look at what Gero says towards the end of battle. He said he was constantly shown to be wrong and basically had no choice but to flee. He wanted to avoid awakening the Androids, so he assumed everyone would've powered him up enough to handle Vegeta. As for the others, I suppose you could come away with that assumption, but Gero also thought Yamcha was a good source of power. I wouldn't say his inaccurate calculations necessarily tell us much about their power. He was both underestimating Vegeta and overestimating his own potential.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

4x is a good multiplier for SSJs post Freeza Saga, considering the Base>Piccolo implications at Buu
Saga and the 3000/800 ratio for Goku/Yakon.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I think 165 million is rather high for a suppressed level. Isn't suppression supposed to mean they're at a pretty weak level?

With the way Gohan had to actually feel the "subtle distortion" of Piccolo's power, I'm not really sure if his suppressed level needs to be that high.

 

[ahill1]

That are some good points, Evil Vegeta, and I totally see the viewpoint of someone not wanting to buy Gero's words. There's also the theory in which he can't accurately measure a SSJ's powers, since it's above the maximum power his radar can measure or something like this.

But I still think Gero (+ 2 suppressed Piccolos) ~ Vegeta SSJ can still work if you push the numbers a little. Maybe Gero (post all those absorptions) doesn't have to be above SSJ Vegeta, just in the same vicinity so he can manage something. He is pretty much against the idea of awakening #17 and #18, so I think he is gonna buy a chance (even if it's not pretty big) of defeating Vegeta with his own powers.

Piccolo saying the suppressed power Gero absorbed was nothing is somewhat vague... nothing to what? It might be nothing to his (Piccolo's) full power I guess, or nothing in a sense that it did nothing in letting Gero turn the tables. Looking at way Vegeta talked, I have the feeling he is a bit uneasy with Gero absorbing Piccolo again.

Gero (+suppressed Piccolo) ~ SSJ Vegeta >= SSJ Goku > SSJ Trunks > Piccolo >> Gero is what's implied. May be bullshit and hard to work numerically, but I don't think it's impossible. The humans should be pretty strong too. Gero absorbing Gohan, Kuririn and Tenshinhan would (maybe, not a hard fact) took him from considerably below Piccolo to above Vegeta SSJ. Maybe also a good indication that Piccolo isn't too far below Vegeta.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I always took it as nothing compared to what he could unleash in battle. With the way Piccolo words it, I always got the impression that it was minuscule compared to Piccolo's actual power output.

No.20: “W-why you…To think that even Piccolo had increased his power this much…”

When I look at that, I feel like he was only able to gauge Piccolo's power based on the attacks he was feeling. After Piccolo started beating him down, Gero thought it was impossible because he was already more powerful and further beyond that with Piccolo's power. It's almost like his power radar wasn't even measuring anything at that moment. As for Vegeta, I think he just saw Gero unnecessarily absorbing power as an annoyance he didn't feel like dealing with. Gero was able to use his speed to get away from Vegeta, so Vegeta might've thought he more capable than he ended up being.

Personally, I always saw his power radar as having a limit. Nowhere near as good as one like #16's that could continuously measure power the stronger they became. I think Gero had calculations for everyone based on his research, so he'd be aware if they surpassed those or not. Once someone proves to be far above his calculated figures, I feel like his power radar kinda makes everything into guesswork.

No.20: “I see…You seem to have achieved a truly considerable power-up. It’s a strange technique…This greatly surpasses our calculated figures…”
No.20: “…Kuh…! Th-this power up greatly exceeds my estimated data…Th-this is bad. Like this, No.19 will run out of energy before he steals any power…”

Seems like the same statement. In the initial statement, he believes #19 has a chance, but that same power-up proved to be beyond his understanding based on the following one. I think he can't calculate higher powers for shit.

 

[ahill1]

How about this?

Tenshinhan 20,000,000
Kuririn 30,000,000
Son Gohan 50,000,000
Suppressed Piccolo 100,000,000
Dr. Gero 200,000,000
Vegeta SSJ 400,000,000

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I think my main issue comes down to whether Gero is actually seeing those numbers or much less based on the fact that everyone was trying to keep their power low. Is that everyone's suppressed level or full-power?

Bumping everyone's level up is a good approach, but then you're still reminded that this guy's radar kinda sucks.

 

[ahill1]

I don't think they were suppressed. Well, you do have Kuririn later increasing his chi to give everyone a signal, but Dr. Gero also stated Yamcha was a good source of energy... I dunno about that if they were all suppressed.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Hm, if they were suppressed things can work a bit better, with Gero estimating they still 10% of Vegeta like in Freeza Arc

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Check your power levels by using SSjin as 10x boost.