22nd Budokai Goku

[p123]

Let's try to sort out the mess of the issues surrounding the 22nd Budokai. Most of these issues revolve around Goku's power. We have the question of Initial Goku vs Chappa and it's effect on Krillen and Yamcha. That issue has it's own thread already so let's skip to the next issue.

Battle Level Goku vs Match Level Goku. What exactly is the difference here? Is it just a power increase? Is speed increased as well?

Also, what is this technique that Goku uses that no one can see him? Is it the same PL as what he used before or is he increasing his power?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I can't remember anything about a technique or what, but match-level and battle-level. Yeah, I think speed goes up, too.

 

[SSJ2]

Match Level Goku is certainly holding back. Battle level/combat level is what Goku fights with when he feels threatened, no? So I'd say his power and speed definitely went up by a good amount.

As for the technique, I'd need to reread it.

 

[p123]

Ok, the only issue I have is that Tien seems to be at full power against both versions of Goku, and seems to match both of them. It doesn't really make sense.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

He is caught off-guard the first time, I think. Which kind-of wouldn't be possible, if Goku's speed didn't go up, or else why didn't he dodge like he did before?

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah, I remember that issue. Perhaps Tenshinhan was holding back himself? Or does that not make sense? I haven't read the 22nd in a while.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I did ask about the apparent power-up Tenshinhan does in-between that, but apparently that was filler.

 

[p123]

Agreed, so for Tien to be caught off guard, it suggests Goku's speed went up. If Goku's speed went up, didn't Tien's speed have to go up to afterwards?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

He was caught off-guard, he doesn't have to power-up for it. He didn't expect Goku's speed to go up by so much, and he even said it was a bluff before Goku went to battle-level.

 

[p123]

Ok, so how do you explain Tien having an even fight with Match Level Goku, getting surprised, then having an even fight with Battle Level Goku. Something appears to be missing here.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Ok, so how do you explain Tien having an even fight with Match Level Goku, getting surprised, then having an even fight with Battle Level Goku. Something appears to be missing here.

He didn't have an even fight. In the anime the narrator even says something like will Goku lose without even putting-up a fight. You could also argue he just wasn't as serious, before but later turned full-on serious.

 

[p123]

Goku and Tien were battling back and forth for about 5 pages. After Goku gets hit with the Dodonpa and bounces right back up, he decides to use that speed blitz technique.

I think our question gets answered if we understand what this technique is.

How does this level compare?

Goku ( Finishing Krillen ) vs Goku ( Beating Krillen up Easily )

Is Goku doing a major speed increase here? How come Tien is the only one that can see it?

 

[Animelover5487]

Well Chaozu didn't say Ten was going all out until after Goku used his battle level.

As for the move he used to defeat Krillin. It looked like he just increased his speed to the point that almost no one could see him. Just a visual to show Goku's incredible speed, sort of like what Roshi and Krillin did at the 21st TB.

 

[p123]

Well no one is surprised that Tien can match Goku after Goku brings out the battle level. So it's confusing all around.

So it's just moving at super speed more or less? Krillen vs Jackie Chun had this, I guess Yamcha vs Saibamen had it as well?

So what does it mean for Roshi to not be able to see it and only Tien being able to barely see it? Does that mean that if you move at super speed, you can't see your opponent if he's a little faster than you?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Chapter: 127, P14.4
Tenshinhan: “Looks like I’ll be able to have somewhat of an amusing match with him…”

Chapter: 129, P13.5
Context: said after Goku beats up Tenshinhan with his battle-use power.
Tenshinhan: “I-I’m so happy…! To think that there was someone like you…I’m getting excited…! This has never happened before…!”

 

[p123]

Wow, very impressive. Nice!

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Wow, very impressive. Nice!

 

[p123]

Alright so we have confirmation now that Match Level Goku and Battle Level Goku should be different tiers of power for sure. Which originally delving into this topic wouldn't have looked like much, but when you get into the nitty gritty, is ultra important.

Ok... So Tien's comments, Roshi and Krillen's look of awe definitely help to wrap this up.

Now, the question becomes about Tien.

When does Tien alter his power? How strong is Tien's initial power?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Since apparently Tenshinhan didn't do a visible power, like I saw in the anime via meditation, I assume either Tenshinhan just wasn't fully serious at the beginning or was fighting casually or he did do a power-up, but it wasn't shown visually.

 

[p123]

When Tien is able to hit Goku out of his super speed technique and lands a million punches, was this Tien's full power?