A perspective different from the common norm

[kriss-]

For this thread, we will be examining some of the most important aspects of the Majin Boo Saga in an attempt to come to the consensus that Goku was intended to be the strongest amongst the Z-Fighters. For simplicity's sake, I will be giving a generalized summary for each argument as opposed to listing a myriad of different statements from the official source. At the end of the page, I will include links to all the arguments which will contain the statements & artwork, to support each claim.

Innocent Buu​

• Innocent Buu is roughly 2.5x the battle power of Teen Gohan SSj2.

A common argument that people generally use to try to discredit this implication is the Kiri meter. They claim that the Kiri meter is inaccurate because it listed Yakon's battle power at 800 and Goku SSj at 3,000. This is a misconception. The meter capped out at 3,000, so it contradicts nothing. Further-more, Innocent Buu is unable to completely one-shot Majin Vegeta with an off-guard, angry explosion; so the feats do support this power-scaling.

Gotenks​

• Gotenks SSj Pre is never confirmed to be stronger then anyone and was more-or-less, a work in progress.

A statement without sufficient evidence is an opinion and hardly a fact. Likewise, a predetermined expectation within a story is still burdened by the merits of actuality and confirmation -whether the expected event is true or not, remains to be seen until it is either proven to be so or isn't, characters are most certainly fallible and everything else is burdened by subjectivity, especially if it involves statements or non-contradicted, but neither confirmed, opinions.

Later evidence informs us that Gotenks did not live up to the expectations set before him, until he completely mastered fusion after training inside the Rosat. This is even implied because nobody whom observed Gotenks SSj actually suggests that he was at a level beyond Innocent Buu -much less Goku, prior to completing his training.

Additionally, Goku changed his opinion about Gotenks's effectiveness from simply being able to perform fusion to perfecting it, after he witnessed the full battle power of Goten and Trunks.

Because so much emphasis is placed on the boys mastering fusion once they got inside the Rosat, then it is a forgone conclusion that they did not actually live up to the expectations until they finished their training.

Unless you can bring one statement -which does not actually exist, that suggests he was as powerful as Goku made him out to be, then my perspective is as consistent as your own.

• Gotenks SSj Post-Rosat is implied to be weaker than Innocent Buu.

During Super Boo's initial transformation, he performed a temporary power-burst to test his new abilities. This is heavily implied within the Manga because Super Boo is shown examining his body. It is at this moment that Piccolo realized that Gotenks was boned, because of how powerful Super Boo's power-burst was and not his superficial battle power.

Other notable Chi sensors do not catch onto Super Boo's increased battle power -nor do they bother making any statements that implies that it changed, therefore; Super Boo's initial transformation is likely as powerful as Innocent Boo was. This does make sense. Innocent Boo and Super Boo are essentially comprised of the same material, so when they reformed, they simply remerged into what they were before with the evil portion taking control of the body.

Lastly, when Super Boo finally arrives inside the Rosat, he is still fighting at Innocent Buu's battle power. Gotenks Base Post is completely unable to do anything, and it is only with Gotenks's newfound abilities as a Super Saiyan, do the tables begin to turn.

Super Buu & Kid Buu​

• Goku was trying to fuse with Vegeta inside Super Boo's body.

While inside Majin Buu's body, Goku discovers that the younger generation is alright, and he also learns that fusion is still a viable option inside of Majin Buu. Presently, he still has two options available. The moral reasoning of wanting someone alive to save the world -which was the entire reason of leaving the world up to Goten and Trunks; and one of the reasons they went inside Majin Buu in the first place, and the possibility of performing fusion while inside Buu. However, the secondary option would require some additional effort because he has to somehow convince Vegeta to perform fusion with him. What better way to do it then to admit inferiority to Majin Buu?

This is not outlandish at all. We need to pay attention to Goku's comedic facial expressions as he tries to convince Vegeta to fuse with him. This does not appear to be reaction of a desperate man. It also follows in contextual progression with the statement that came before it. 'Majin Buu is stronger then either of us', so within the larger context of the scene, Goku was trying to convince Vegeta to merge with him.

His reasoning for being adamant about using Super Saiyan 3 is quite clear:

Goku: "It's that 'Super Saiyan 3' thing from before... It's a technique you should only use in the afterlife... In this world, where time exists, it uses too much energy, and you get completely exhausted all at once..."

• As Buff Buu transforms into Kid Buu, his Chi is not noted as decreasing.

It is extremely interesting to note that in a series where everything focuses around strength, we are not directly told that Pure Buu actually decreased in battle power. In essentially every other scenario where a fighter either decreases or increases in battle power, we are informed in some way. We are not here. This leads us to two conclusions. Either Kid Buu's battle power is much closer to Buff Buu's then Super Buu's is, or the difference between Buff Buu and Kid Buu is to miniscule for Akira Toriyama to make a note of it.

• Gohan is completely impressed with Goku SSj3 and Oob.

There would essentially be no reason for this unless he was actually surpassed by these two fighters. If we follow the common norm, this would make essentially no sense, since Gohan would be in such a league of his own that Goku and Oob would theoretically appear as though they were standing in one place.

It is quite obvious that Gohan is blown away by what Oob and Goku are capable of doing. The events within Dragonball Super suggest Gohan trained in-between the duration of the Boo Saga and EOZ, so even arguing that Gohan doesn't train no longer holds merit.

Sources:
http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4565
http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4370
http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4338
http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4005
http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3629
http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t2118838-99-accurate-ssj2-gohan-fat-boo-gap/

 

[Tapion]

I don't even know why i'm writing this. "Close-minded" people aren't allowed.

Innocent Buu


• Innocent Buu is roughly 2.5x the battle power of Teen Gohan SSj2.

A common argument that people generally use to try to discredit this implication is the Kiri meter. They claim that the Kiri meter is inaccurate because it listed Yakon's battle power at 800 and Goku SSj at 3,000. This is a misconception. The meter capped out at 3,000, so it contradicts nothing. Further-more, Innocent Buu is unable to completely one-shot Majin Vegeta with an off-guard, angry explosion; so the feats do support this power-scaling.

1. There's no proof that Fat Buu is 2.5x the power of SSj2 Teen Gohan.

2. One-shottings gaps aren't linear.

• Gotenks SSj Pre is never confirmed to be stronger then anyone and was more-or-less, a work in progress.

A statement without sufficient evidence is an opinion and hardly a fact.

But when it comes from a in-universe character and isn't contradicted it is a fact. If the fans like it or not, this is completely unimportant.

ikewise, a predetermined expectation within a story is still burdened by the merits of actuality and confirmation -whether the expected event is true or not, remains to be seen until it is either proven to be so or isn't, characters are most certainly fallible and everything else is burdened by subjectivity, especially if it involves statements or non-contradicted, but neither confirmed, opinions.

Statements are fact until contradicted. There is no proof that FPSSJ Goku at Cell Games wasn't using only 1% of his power against Cell to make Gohan feel better, so i'll just go with that and disregard the uncontradicted statements.

Later evidence informs us that Gotenks did not live up to the expectations set before him, until he completely mastered fusion after training inside the Rosat.

Baseless assumption.

This is even implied because nobody whom observed Gotenks SSj actually suggests that he was at a level beyond Innocent Buu -much less Goku, prior to completing his training.

Except the fact that Piccolo said that Gotenks's ki was really incredible and when Gotenks flew to fight Fat Buu as a SSj, Piccolo only expressed concern due to the fact that Gotenks had only one minute left, instead of outright saying that he stood no chance even if he had enough time.

Additionally, Goku changed his opinion about Gotenks's effectiveness from simply being able to perform fusion to perfecting it, after he witnessed the full battle power of Goten and Trunks.

Goku saw their full power and then he said that there might be a time afterwards Fat Buu that they need the RoSaT. That doesn't proof anything, not at all.

Because so much emphasis is placed on the boys mastering fusion once they got inside the Rosat, then it is a forgone conclusion that they did not actually live up to the expectations until they finished their training.

Uh..no. Goku actually didn't want to send them into the RoSaT.

Unless you can bring one statement -which does not actually exist, that suggests he was as powerful as Goku made him out to be, then my perspective is as consistent as your own.

There's no need to, the fact that nobody said that Goku was wrong and Piccolo's statement is enough to me.

During Super Boo's initial transformation, he performed a temporary power-burst to test his new abilities. This is heavily implied within the Manga because Super Boo is shown examining his body. It is at this moment that Piccolo realized that Gotenks was boned, because of how powerful Super Boo's power-burst was and not his superficial battle power.

Piccolo is already alarmed in the very first second that Super Buu appears.

Other notable Chi sensors do not catch onto Super Boo's increased battle power -nor do they bother making any statements that implies that it changed, therefore; Super Boo's initial transformation is likely as powerful as Innocent Boo was. This does make sense. Innocent Boo and Super Boo are essentially comprised of the same material, so when they reformed, they simply remerged into what they were before with the evil portion taking control of the body.

Five relevant characters sensing Super Buu's ki and never saying that it did go down is enough to determine that he kept his power. I don't need Yamcha and Krillin's opinion to confirm that.

Lastly, when Super Boo finally arrives inside the Rosat, he is still fighting at Innocent Buu's battle power. Gotenks Base Post is completely unable to do anything, and it is only with Gotenks's newfound abilities as a Super Saiyan, do the tables begin to turn.

Disproved that above.

Won't include the last of this wall of text because it is not necessary.

 

[kriss-]

You're right, your opinion is not allowed and I will ignore anything you have to say.

 

[Emmeth]

You're right, your opinion is not allowed and I will ignore anything you have to say.

And this is why you will never be a great debater.

 

[kriss-]

Regardless of what you have to say, I refuse to acknowledge anything Tapion says. He's condescending, rude, close minded and is generally not very intelligent.

I've tried before to work with him, but it's impossible.

 

[Emmeth]

Regardless of what you have to say, I refuse to acknowledge anything Tapion says. He's condescending, rude, close minded and is generally not very intelligent.

I've tried before to work with him, but it's impossible.

I know you have the same opinion of me, so I'm not even gonna bother with this topic. Just wanted to let you know that a great debater listens to everybody, he doesn't pick and choose.

 

[kriss-]

Regardless of what you have to say, I refuse to acknowledge anything Tapion says. He's condescending, rude, close minded and is generally not very intelligent.

I've tried before to work with him, but it's impossible.

I know you have the same opinion of me, so I'm not even gonna bother with this topic. Just wanted to let you know that a great debater listens to everybody, he doesn't pick and choose.

I've tried to work with the guy, it just doesn't work.

He derails every decent thread and essentially ruins them. I will not take his bait anymore.

 

[Tapion]

I smell ad hominem in the air.
I don't care about y'r opinion btw.

 

[kriss-]

I smell ad hominem in the air.
I don't care about y'r opinion btw.

If any of your arguments EVER made one iota of sense, I'd be more liable to listen to them. I have no interest in participating in something as meaningful as a debate with you.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

It is extremely interesting to note that in a series where everything focuses around strength, we are not directly told that Pure Buu actually decreased in battle power. In essentially every other scenario where a fighter either decreases or increases in battle power, we are informed in some way. We are not here. This leads us to two conclusions. Either Kid Buu's battle power is much closer to Buff Buu's then Super Buu's is, or the difference between Buff Buu and Kid Buu is to miniscule for Akira Toriyama to make a note of it.

I don't think "We did it!" means "We made this guy more powerful than ever". The whole point was to get Boo down to a level where they could fight him.

The only one who thought Kid Boo was more powerful than expected was Vegeta. This just shows that he underestimated Kid Boo way more than Goku did, who was only surprised at Boo's inability to take any damage.

 

[Tapion]

I smell ad hominem in the air.
I don't care about y'r opinion btw.

If any of your arguments EVER made one iota of sense, I'd be more liable to listen to them. I have no interest in participating in something as meaningful as a debate with you.

Correction: I can't counter anything that this guy says, so i'll try to make up a lot of bullshit about him and cast one million of ad hominems to pass the impression that i won.