abt yu-gi-oh! &...

[Fantastische Hure]

"power" statements, how do u gais see this?

for example marik called exodia rare-hunter the "weakest" or something and you also see characters refer to as getting "stronger" and so-on. perhaps strong is just a word that was used in-place of better because it can interchangeable in the series, i guess & strong fits a "battle" manga series like yu-gi-oh! i think. i don't get marik's statement abt "weakest". in wot way? did he have cards that weren't as good? had less good strategies than the others or something? or maybe he couldn't draw the cards he needed like others, iirc that did happen

how do u gais see these statements & wot do u make of them?

if u can & want to say

 

[Papasmurf]

Well Exodia is clearly the strongest "monster" in the game since all you need to do is launch one attack to win the game as long as the opponent has any Attack mode monsters in play (in the manga Exodia is just played as a monster with Infinite attack when all 5 cards are gathered). But what they probably meant is that the deck is so riddled with Exodia parts that the Exodia Hunter is the easiest to defeat, once you figure out his strategy. For someone who doesn't know, like Jonouchi Exodia could prove to be deadly though. But that could have been exacerbated by Jonouchi being pretty stupid unless he's fired up to win a duel, plus he apparently wasted time summoning Red-Eyes instead of just hacking away at Exodia Hunter's life points as fast as possible with swarms of weaker monsters.

 

[Papasmurf]

So I guess the "strength" of a character is determined by the monster-magic-trap balance in their decks, how powerful their ace monsters are, how high their win ratio is compared to their loss ratio etc.

Yami Marik's Ra deck was apparently the strongest in the original manga (except maybe Atem's Ceremonial Battle deck which apparently had all 3 Gods), because it was focused on quickly special summoning Ra and using its haxed One Turn Kill ability to destroy all monsters on the field and deplete the opponent's life points, all without tributes like the other two Gods.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

didn't jounouchi & exodia meng play with-out battle-city rules? i thought so for some-reason.

also iirc yugi only had obelisk in his deck in the last duel, because he couldn't have too many lower-level cards for the other cards as-well i think.

if that's how strength is determined i don't know why kaiba always talks abt jounouchi like that. he doesn't have the money like kaiba, who apparently at-times walks around with a suit-case full of cards as if that were money.

 

[Papasmurf]

didn't jounouchi & exodia meng play with-out battle-city rules? i thought so for some-reason.

In the anime they played with Battle City rules, in the manga the duel was mostly skipped so I don't remember much about it. It may or may not have been played with Duelist Kingdom rules. What I do remember is that Kaiba's duel with the Duel Robot which was using his three BEWDs was played with DK rules, so Obelisk could be summoned without Tributes.

also iirc yugi only had obelisk in his deck in the last duel, because he couldn't have too many lower-level cards for the other cards as-well i think.

Atem had at least Osiris as well as Obelisk in the final duel. He discarded it on his first turn to play The Tricky so he could finish the Duel by special summoning Osiris if it ever came to that point. Since he had the other two Gods, and the DsoD movie stated that the three Gods are buried with Atem's deck, more than likely Ra was in his deck as well. He just didn't draw it because Takahashi couldn't think of a way for normal Yugi to beat it

if that's how strength is determined i don't know why kaiba always talks abt jounouchi like that. he doesn't have the money like kaiba, who apparently at-times walks around with a suit-case full of cards as if that were money.

It's probably because Jonouchi wasn't even a Duelist until Duelist Kingdom, plus Kaiba steadily gives Jonouchi slightly more respect, like how he called him an outright loser when they first met, then called him riff-raff/nobody when he won 10 star chips, then called him "run of the mill" or "ordinary" once Jonouchi proved himself by being able to overcome Marik's mind control and bring his duel with Yugi to a tie. Even "ordinary" is kind of an insult implying Kaiba himself is superior/extraordinary tho.

 

[Pyro]

It was Standard Rules for the Seeker duel in the manga. Joey was able to summon Red-Eyes without tributes.

I guess each statement has to be taken as a separate case. Getting "stronger" could mean anything. Having your "best" deck could mean anything.

 

[Papasmurf]

It was Standard Rules for the Seeker duel in the manga. Joey was able to summon Red-Eyes without tributes.

But was the earlier part of the Duel prior to Jonouchi summoning Red-Eyes depicted properly though? I remember they only glimpsed the end of the duel in the manga, whereas in the anime it dragged on for a while (and Joey could've actually won if he attacked directly with Panther Warrior twice instead of only directly attacking with Alligator's Sword really).

I guess each statement has to be taken as a separate case. Getting "stronger" could mean anything. Having your "best" deck could mean anything.

Plot-hax and plot-shield/luck are usually just as big of a factor in winning duels as having a good deck in this series tho 2

 

[Pyro]

It was Standard Rules for the Seeker duel in the manga. Joey was able to summon Red-Eyes without tributes.

But was the earlier part of the Duel prior to Jonouchi summoning Red-Eyes depicted properly though? I remember they only glimpsed the end of the duel in the manga, whereas in the anime it dragged on for a while (and Joey could've actually won if he attacked directly with Panther Warrior twice instead of only directly attacking with Alligator's Sword really).

I guess each statement has to be taken as a separate case. Getting "stronger" could mean anything. Having your "best" deck could mean anything.

Plot-hax and plot-shield/luck are usually just as big of a factor in winning duels as having a good deck in this series tho 2

We see the full duel. Joey only summoned Panther Warrior before bringing out Red-Eyes, and both were on the field when he got Exodia'd. That ain't them Battle City rules.

 

[Papasmurf]

I see. I'm too lazy to look up that chapter so I'll take your word on it. It seems Kaiba set the Duel Disks to not run on Battle City rules until the day of the tournament in the manga then.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

i thought yugi said atem only had obelisk in his deck because, there'd be too many tributes needed other-wise, but i only rly saw up-to yugi defeating obelisk iirc so i might have been wrong. yugi defeating obelisk didn't make sense either tho i think, since the card-effect worked on him & reduced his points (i think).

maybe i don't remember right, but wasn't duel-monsters just a recent phenomenon? i thought something abt that that came from america just recently & that was almost brought-up like the yo-yo earlier in the manga where that was like a fad or something (i think if i remember correctly). kaiba sort-of makes sense i guess since he might have known abt that earlier & had earlier access to that, but still jounouchi couldn't have started that much later than the others tho, right?! this doesn't rly explain why marik & ishizu were seen playing in the flash-back tho, maybe duel-monsters game was years earlier in egypt i think.

kaiba also still praised bakura who he didn't knw anything abt, so abt him being like that to jounouchi is kind-of bad, even-tho jounouchi embarrassing himself the way he did earlier against kaiba in duelist-kingdom (iirc) might not have helped i think.

 

[Papasmurf]

i thought yugi said atem only had obelisk in his deck because, there'd be too many tributes needed other-wise, but i only rly saw up-to yugi defeating obelisk iirc so i might have been wrong. yugi defeating obelisk didn't make sense either tho i think, since the card-effect worked on him & reduced his points (i think).

Yeah a trap card somehow managed to weaken Obelisk (when it could've just been a spell-card which would at least work for one turn) despite the fact that it was established in Battle City that Traps aren't triggered by Obelisk's attack. Honestly preferred the anime version of that duel where Ground Erosion was at least stated to target the ground under Obelisk and not Obelisk himself, Ra was normal summoned (even though it didn't use any special effects for some reason) etc.

maybe i don't remember right, but wasn't duel-monsters just a recent phenomenon? i thought something abt that that came from america just recently & that was almost brought-up like the yo-yo earlier in the manga where that was like a fad or something (i think if i remember correctly). kaiba sort-of makes sense i guess since he might have known abt that earlier & had earlier access to that, but still jounouchi couldn't have started that much later than the others tho, right?! this doesn't rly explain why marik & ishizu were seen playing in the flash-back tho, maybe duel-monsters game was years earlier in egypt i think.

They did say it was an American card game that was hot shit in Japan since pretty recently, but Takahashi retconned the hell out of it when he turned it into a card game based on Shadow Games from ancient Egypt even though Shadow Games early on in the manga were just regular games with magic powers preventing cheating, where your true self comes out.

kaiba also still praised bakura who he didn't knw anything abt, so abt him being like that to jounouchi is kind-of bad, even-tho jounouchi embarrassing himself the way he did earlier against kaiba in duelist-kingdom (iirc) might not have helped i think.

Bakura has Yugi against the ropes and would've won if not for Yugi drawing Osiris at the last minute, so that's probably more worthy of praise to Kaiba than Jonouchi managing to beat Rishid through only a technicality. Kaiba did acknowledge Jonouchi when he "died" against Marik though, for nearly defeating Marik and surviving Ra's God Phoenix attack, which he saw as the sign of a true Duelist. It seems near the end Kaiba just kept insulting/looking down on Jonouchi to save face moreso than because he still thought Jonouchi was a loser, although in the manga they really have no interactions after the 4 way duel in Battle City anyway. Jonouchi dueling Kaiba for the bronze medal, as well as any interaction in the anime they had afterwards were all filler.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

didn't yugi also play the dark-games so that the person losing also gets a "penalty-game"? each dark-game had their own unique quality iirc. the one against jounouchi/mai is 1 where the players felt the pain i think & then there was a "penalty-game" in the duel against mai i think.

in the anime, didn't osiris' effect work against ra, which wasn't supposed to work or something because of the hierarchy or something.

also isn't yugi defeating exodia similar to how in dragonball previous highest gets surpassed in the next saga? it's not a 1:1 comparison, i think but maybe slightly the same. yugi defeated exodia & then marik tells him there'll be some1 with a god-card who will duel yugi (iirc) who even yugi with his skill cannot defeat or something i think. yugi was also abt to give-up i think until kaiba encouraged him, which maybe shows how osiris is higher than exodia (i think).

 

[Papasmurf]

didn't yugi also play the dark-games so that the person losing also gets a "penalty-game"? each dark-game had their own unique quality iirc. the one against jounouchi/mai is 1 where the players felt the pain i think & then there was a "penalty-game" in the duel against mai i think.

Penalty games don't necessarily have to be enforced, although some of the shadow games were just being played with stuff like matches/fire, explosives, rigged so that the loser would end up electrocuted etc. so Atem didn't even need to use shadow powers on them. In the manga Atem decided to stop using Penalty Games even when he wins Dark Games (and decided not to initiate dark games in the first place) upon hearing Pegasus explain that there is an evil will inside the Millennium Items (probably referring to the spirits of Kul Elna's sacrifices and 's power), and Atem at the time thought he was an entity originating from the Puzzle. In the anime... he barely used dark games anyway and just decided to not use them in Battle City. lol

in the anime, didn't osiris' effect work against ra, which wasn't supposed to work or something because of the hierarchy or something.

That quote was manga only. In the anime Ra needed Marik's Spell card preventing destruction by battle from a Monster of equal or lower star-rank (both Ra and Obelisk were 10-star monsters) to dispel Obelisk's infinite attack effect. I guess the anime writers did this predicting that it would make Ra less overpowered, and easier to write a scenario where it could actually be defeated if Atem ever used it in a duel.

also isn't yugi defeating exodia similar to how in dragonball previous highest gets surpassed in the next saga? it's not a 1:1 comparison, i think but maybe slightly the same. yugi defeated exodia & then marik tells him there'll be some1 with a god-card who will duel yugi (iirc) who even yugi with his skill cannot defeat or something i think. yugi was also abt to give-up i think until kaiba encouraged him, which maybe shows how osiris is higher than exodia (i think).

Osiris clearly isn't higher than Exodia in attack power since Osiris can't even reach 40,000 ATK due to the limitation of cards in the deck, but it's probably much easier to defeat the opponent by summoning Osiris than to wait for all 5 Exodia pieces to gather in one's hand, going by the Exodia hunter being considered even weaker than Pandora (whose ace monster was Black Magician).

IDK how the shonen trope of every main antagonist being surpassed early on in the next arc works in YuGiOh, since Bakura was the main antagonist of Memory World and he lost to Marik. Pegasus with the Eye would've been really haxed in Battle City too since he could know beforehand when you were about to tribute 3 Monsters for an Egyptian God summon, and possibly negate it. I don't think it's the typical "escalator" type of progression you see in other battle manga where every main antagonist makes the previous look like an ant.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

then there are rly stupid effects & explanations in the anime, i think like dark necrofear needing 3 monster-cards to be removed from the grave-yard. only in the manga, they needed to specifically be in the grave-yard because they were defeated in attack-mode, where-as the anime changed that line for some rly stupid reason i think & kaiba gave an explanation that made no sense as to why i think, l0l

i meant as-in the god-cards being presented as being higher than exodia i think. in a game exodia could maybe win, but the cards were portrayed superior for some-reason i think.

 

[Papasmurf]

then there are rly stupid effects & explanations in the anime, i think like dark necrofear needing 3 monster-cards to be removed from the grave-yard. only in the manga, they needed to specifically be in the grave-yard because they were defeated in attack-mode, where-as the anime changed that line for some rly stupid reason i think & kaiba gave an explanation that made no sense as to why i think, l0l

The manga's restriction was worse if anything. You had to have 3 fiend type Monsters all sent to the graveyard (probably by battle) in attack position within 5 turns or some such nonsense, which they could also bypass for some reason with a special summon from the Graveyard (see: Bakura's use of Puppet Master against Marik in the manga). In the anime you could simply have 3 monsters sent to the Graveyard by means other than battle, there was no time limit and you couldn't just discard Necrofear to the graveyard and revive it with Monster Reborn or some other card effect, unless it was properly summoned first. The anime follows the rules of the OCG in real life somewhat more closely.

i meant as-in the god-cards being presented as being higher than exodia i think. in a game exodia could maybe win, but the cards were portrayed superior for some-reason i think.

Drawing all 5 parts of Exodia, especially if the opponent knows that's your strategy, is significantly harder than just summoning one monster, 3 tributes or not, I'd say.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

also technically ye marik did defeat bakura i guess, but in the end bakura still prevailed so marik didn't even rly fully win the dark-game

 

[Fantastische Hure]

maybe abt dark-necrofear but kaiba's explanation abt attack/defence mode still didn't make sense to me, even anzu iirc said something like it didn't seem like he even knew the basics of the game

 

[Papasmurf]

maybe abt dark-necrofear but kaiba's explanation abt attack/defence mode still didn't make sense to me, even anzu iirc said something like it didn't seem like he even knew the basics of the game

Bakura feigned being an idiot who barely knew the basics of the game to goad Yugi into attacking his monsters really. He clearly was a skilled Duelist, like most people associated with Ancient Egypt seem to be for some reason.

I don't remember what Kaiba said, just that Bakura said something along the lines of Dark Necrofear needing 3 Fiend type Monsters to be sent to the graveyard by battle in attack position within 5 turns to summon. In the manga it was haxed as hell if it went to the graveyard, being able to possess monsters and allowing Destiny Board to be played. In the anime they made it less haxed by having Dark Sanctuary replicate those effects

 

[Fantastische Hure]

kaiba & jounouchi at 16:34 i think

Spoiler

[youtube]h2jGJS4biXU[/youtube]

i think playing them in attack-mode, if he didn't have to didn't make sense especially since he didn't play any set cards just in-case he might need them. he could have lost right there, before he could even activate dark-necrofear i think

 

[Papasmurf]

Yeh in the anime they came up with that explanation, in the manga Bakura openly said the requirement was that they need to be summoned and sent to the graveyard in Attack position. The anime changed the lines because the real world Dark Necrofear doesn't have the same requirements as the manga version (and the anime series exists mainly as a commercial for the card game, which is why we saw monsters like Ultimate Dragon and Dragon Master Knight in the anime version of Memory World).