Analysis of Z-Sword Gohan

[kriss-]

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translatio...toriyama-2013/

Akira Toriyama

What are the requirements for becoming strong?
There are physical limits to the strength of the body itself,so in order to overcome that barrier, it’s necessary to increase your “ki”. Normally, the more you increase your ki, the harder it is to control, so ki control is also important.

According to the authority of Dragonball, 'arm/physical strength' can only make you so strong. One must master their Ki in order to increase their strength. All Gohan did was swing a heavy sword for a day and increased his arm strength, nothing more.

He did absolutely no training to master his Ki. So no, he couldn't surpass his previous Mssj self from the Cell Games, without forcibly using SSj3 and learning to master a higher degree of Ki.

Akira Toriyama

When it comes to battle, the most important thing is ki size, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki; could also be translated as "true character"

Gohan did no training with the Z-Sword that affected anything from the above. Therefore, his training wouldn't result in his battle against Fat Boo playing out any differently.

He did no training with his Ki. So logically, he didn't increase that much overall.

Now let this silliness end.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Gohan thought he improved so much than his previous state which should be at least stronger than Goku at the same form. Moreover, Gohan was able to swing the sword easier than Goku.

 

[kriss-]

Gohan never made that comparison.

As proven in the original post of the thread, muscle strength -aka swinging a sword easier, has nothing to do with 'actual' strength, aka Chi.

Please put a little more effort into your argument.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I respect your approach, Hokuten, but i'd rather keep things simple and just give Sword Gohan a PL somewhat higher than Goku's (same forms).

 

[kriss-]

I respect your approach, Hokuten, but i'd rather keep things simple and just give Sword Gohan a PL somewhat higher than Goku's (same forms).

Well that's better way of saying you don't agree, in comparison to how alot of other people (including myself) have been saying it.

 

[Clearin]

Technically swinging the Z sword would have increased his vigor (physical strength and good health). Probably not as much as is implied, but still a little.

Ki in DBZ is increased pretty much through strength training though. How many times do we see characters do training that seems to focus solely on Ki? We see a few characters meditating now and then, but the majority of the time it's weight training, gravity training or sparring with another person.

Since Ki is made up of Genki, which is energy and vigor, that would mean that simple weight training would increase Ki. In fact Genki is the only thing characters have a way to directly improve. Yuuki and Shouki are basically just about not losing your mind or becoming scared in battle.

I don't know exactly how it works, but I assume every time a character trains with weights, their physical strength goes up, but so does their Ki. Their physical strength can only go so far though, but then it's amplified by the Ki they have.

 

[kriss-]

Actually, the entire premise of toughing their muscle strength was dismissed after the Androids Saga. Since then the Z-Warriors focused on mastering their Super Saiyan form and forcibly amplifying their Chi through transformations. So by the time Gohan went to do his Z-Sword training, the entire concept of 'muscle' strength being relevant was already long since dismissed.

He wasn't a Mastered Super Saiyan when he arrived to pick up the sword and I doubt he would have been when he left. He simply didn't focus on the more important training methods, which is Chi control and using it to make yourself stronger.

 

[sei'taer]

Well that's not entirely true. The concept of using your chi to bulk up your muscle mass was proven wrong and inefficient especially doing it to the point of compromising speed.

Obviously increasing muscle strength was still considered good or goku wouldn't have been training with weights in the beginning of the buu saga.

 

[kriss-]

Well that's not entirely true. The concept of using your chi to bulk up your muscle mass was proven wrong and inefficient especially doing it to the point of compromising speed.

The introduction of SSjG3 was an attempt to trying to reach the next level beyond Super Saiyan, which is Super Saiyan 2. Nobody but Gohan could do it. Trunks made the silly mistake of believing he did it when he only increased his muscle strength in exchange for speed. It had nothing to do with him intentionally using his Chi to bulk himself up. He tried transforming to the next level and performed the wrong transformation.

Obviously increasing muscle strength was still considered good or goku wouldn't have been training with weights in the beginning of the buu saga.

Toriyama also states that Goku maxed out in strength in the Boo Saga. He couldn't get any stronger. So that scene can mean one of two things: a) He was at his peak already and only sought to maintain his strength, which isn't entirely without reason because Goku is still training during the intermission between the Boo Saga and Dragonball Super or b) He was nearing his full power and was making the final touchups.

Regardless, it doesn't mean that by merely training your muscles you'll build a wider knowledge and deeper understanding of Chi control, which is the fundamental principal to getting stronger once your muscles reach their full strength.

Kid Gohan during the Cell Games was at his peak potential and couldn't get any stronger, the only way he possibly could have is by using SSj3 to forcibly amplify his Chi (like Goku did) or have someone bring him way past his limits, which he obviously did.

I fail to see how an extremely rusty Teen Gohan could wield a sword for a day, work his muscles, and magically gain a better understanding of Chi and relearn what he lost over the course of 7 years.

It's illogical.

 

[sei'taer]

The introduction of SSjG3 was an attempt to trying to reach the next level beyond Super Saiyan, which is Super Saiyan 2. Nobody but Gohan could do it. Trunks made the silly mistake of believing he did it when he only increased his muscle strength in exchange for speed. It had nothing to do with him intentionally using his Chi to bulk himself up. He tried transforming to the next level and performed the wrong transformation.

Trunks believed he was reaching another level of SSJ. Vegeta, goku and cell all knew it was pumping chi into your muscles. Goku even flat out states it's not another form but just an extension of Grade 2. Trunks was just too stupid to realize it.

Regardless, it doesn't mean that by merely training your muscles you'll build a wider knowledge and deeper understanding of Chi control, which is the fundamental principal to getting stronger once your muscles reach their full strength.

No, but if you haven't reached your physical peak you'll get stronger by using muscle training. Gohan clearly increases his strength training with the Z sword. You're putting far too much emphasis on AT's statement about chi, he never says that you can't increase your power by large amounts through strength training, just that there is a limit to what you can achieve without chi control.

There are massive strength feats in the series long before chi is really even mentioned. All through the series weighted clothing is used to train. So clearly unless you've reached your maximum physical strength such training is still relevant. Gohan clearly makes a gain from doing so, since he goes from moving the sword with great effort in base (like goku) to being able to move it effortlessly. That doesn't mean he's anywhere near buu's level, but it certainly indicates he's physically stronger than goku in base.

 

[kriss-]

Trunks believed he was reaching another level of SSJ. Vegeta, goku and cell all knew it was pumping chi into your muscles. Goku even flat out states it's not another form but just an extension of Grade 2. Trunks was just too stupid to realize it.

Agreed.

No, but if you haven't reached your physical peak you'll get stronger by using muscle training. Gohan clearly increases his strength training with the Z sword. You're putting far too much emphasis on AT's statement about chi, he never says that you can't increase your power by large amounts through strength training, just that there is a limit to what you can achieve without chi control.

There are massive strength feats in the series long before chi is really even mentioned. All through the series weighted clothing is used to train. So clearly unless you've reached your maximum physical strength such training is still relevant. Gohan clearly makes a gain from doing so, since he goes from moving the sword with great effort in base (like goku) to being able to move it effortlessly. That doesn't mean he's anywhere near buu's level, but it certainly indicates he's physically stronger than goku in base.

The characters aren't shown to increase in muscle strength since the Android Saga, which was the final usage of the gravity room. Because muscle training on it's own wasn't effective anymore. The only way to get stronger afterwards is by mastering your Base and Super Saiyan form, and once that's completed, the characters had to resort to forcefully amplifying their Super Saiyan form. Muscle training lost it's effectiveness a long time ago.

Being physically stronger doesn't make you overall stronger once Chi control is factored in. Boo cannot be defeated the normal way -which is by physical attacks, or muscle strength, he can only be defeated by Chi attacks. Gohan only increased his muscle strength, therefore he did nothing to improve his chances against Boo.

You've already lost the merits for your argument.