Androids saga power scaling

[ahill1]

So how would you scale the not so relevant but debatable characters like the fake androids as well as Piccolo at the androids saga, prior to Piccolo fusing with Kami again?

I personally have this at the moment:

#19 -- 168,000,000
--- post absorptions -- 210,000,000

#20 -- 183,000,000
--- post absorptions -- 220,000,000

Piccolo -- 250,000,000


That'd make #19 going from Mecha Freeza's level to Future Trunks SSJ's level post absorptions, with #20 going from future Gohan SSJ (1 arm) to post Yardrat Goku post absorptions.

Piccolo would be noticeably stronger than post Yardrat Goku but still weaker than any androids saga SSJ, whom I have in the 300,000,000 range.

Your opinions?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I have Nineteen at SSJ Alternate Trunks (debut) level pre absorptions and stronger than SSJ Yardrat Goku post absorptions.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I would say the three of them are in the low millions. I don't see much of a reason to place any of these guys beyond even Base Goku anymore, though Piccolo should definitely be wrecking 3rd form Freeza by this point.

 

[ahill1]

Not beyond base Goku? How come?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I don't see much of a reason to place any of these guys beyond even Base Goku anymore

Uh, #20 effortlessly tanked a full power punch from an angry Base Goku

Also, you have this from Kuririn:

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

Even if not treating Piccolo on par with the Super Saiyans, he should at bare minimum be far above the Base Saiyans for Kuririn to make such a statement when Piccolo has been treat as someone who can catch up to or surpass Base Goku several times in the past and has the benefit of training with Goku and Gohan for 3 years.

 

[ahill1]

yeah, I don't see why Kuririn would even bring up the SSJs if Piccolo were < base.

 

[SSJ2]

I think 20 pre should at least be very close to 19 post.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Uh, #20 effortlessly tanked a full power punch from an angry Base Goku

Also, you have this from Kuririn:

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

Even if not treating Piccolo on par with the Super Saiyans, he should at bare minimum be far above the Base Saiyans for Kuririn to make such a statement when Piccolo has been treat as someone who can catch up to or surpass Base Goku several times in the past and has the benefit of training with Goku and Gohan for 3 years.

Goku’s punch actually wasn’t that much different from Piccolo’s kneeing Gero. Both had budged him and sent him several meter back, and that’s not even accounting for Goku’s illness.

It’s easy to look strong when beating someone who should be strong. Kuririn sensed a mere 5k from Goku, but thought he could beat even Freeza based on him beating the Ginyus:

Spoiler

Kuririn is known for letting his emotions overwhelm his rationality in Z, so his statement here shouldn’t be taken literally.

 

[SSJ2]

Piccolo stomped a powered up Gero, who was already said to be able to beat weakened SSJ Vegeta who had beaten 19 post. Base Goku isn’t doing that.

 

[Kyo]

Piccolo’s confusion later in the arc destroys any possibility of the fake droids being that low without bending his words or just ignoring half his statement entirely. This really shouldn’t be a conversation anyone’s having in 2020, I don’t care whose punch did what.

Lowest you could reasonably go is 20 post around Yardrat Goku level imo.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Goku’s punch actually wasn’t that much different from Piccolo’s kneeing Gero. Both had budged him and sent him several meter back, and that’s not even accounting for Goku’s illness.

Leaving aside how Gero was still confident about a far stronger version of the Goku that punched him, characters only start noticing the illness taking effect after Goku flies away from South City. For none of them to have noticed a difference in performance, he'd still have to at least have been at his post-Yardrat base level at that point.

It’s easy to look strong when beating someone who should be strong. Kuririn sensed a mere 5k from Goku, but thought he could beat even Freeza based on him beating the Ginyus:

Spoiler

Kuririn is known for letting his emotions overwhelm his rationality in Z, so his statement here shouldn’t be taken literally.

Yeah, Kuririn would still need to rely on #20's movements to judge it, the same movements that SSJ Vegeta got surprised by.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Piccolo stomped a powered up Gero, who was already said to be able to beat weakened SSJ Vegeta who had beaten 19 post. Base Goku isn’t doing that.

Vegeta couldn't even maintain Super Saiyan anymore, you can see he reverts back to base after killing 19.

Piccolo’s confusion later in the arc destroys any possibility of the fake droids being that low without bending his words or just ignoring half his statement entirely. This really shouldn’t be a conversation anyone’s having in 2020, I don’t care whose punch did what.

Lowest you could reasonably go is 20 post around Yardrat Goku level imo.

Anyway, only if you take his words out of context. Key word here is confused: Piccolo is clearly not on the level of a Super Saiyan as per his own admission, but the two guys they just defeated match with the description Trunks gave of the Androids. Both options are equally unlikely, what still give Piccolo's statement the same meaning as your perspective of both options being equally likely: Piccolo simply doesn't understand what the fuck is going on.

There's also 19 and 20's special ability to absorb energy, which would cast further doubts on whether the Z Fighters were killed by their initial powers or absorbed ones.

Leaving aside how Gero was still confident about a far stronger version of the Goku that punched him, characters only start noticing the illness taking effect after Goku flies away from South City. For none of them to have noticed a difference in performance, he'd still have to at least have been at his post-Yardrat base level at that point.

Given how Gero didn't comment on Goku surpassing his expected calculations (Which told him Goku wouldn't get much stronger post Saiyan Arc) until he became a Super Saiyan, I find doubtful he even got a proper reading of Goku's power up to that point.

Also I just checked the chapter, and Goku definitely doesn't seem give any signals of illness until they travel.

Yeah, Kuririn would still need to rely on #20's movements to judge it, the same movements that SSJ Vegeta got surprised by.

Too bad he's too busy commenting on Piccolo's power to bother with 20's. And Vegeta never gauged 20's strength by his movements.

 

[SSJ2]

How on earth did 19 not break in half when taking hits from SSJ Goku if he was weaker than Base Goku? The same Goku whose power almost caused Tenshinhan to orgasm despite feeling his Yardrat SSJ power. Vegeta ripped his arms off and one shotted him despite being too weak to maintain SSJ as you say (which was clearly part of his bluff). This is nonsense.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku was suffering from a illness, and as Piccolo points out he can’t fight to his fullest in spite of his efforts. Goku’s power might have seemed more impressive than even his power from 3 years ago but he lacks the stamina to even fly from an Island to another, let alone deploy such power properly in a fight.

He was able to get free from 19’s hold and destroy him, but would he manage to replicate that feat against 20? Even Piccolo, who you think is closer to SSJ levels, failed to do that.

 

[ahill1]

I also think that Vegeta would have commented on the fact that even his base state could defeat the androids if that were the case. The fact that as soon as he turns back to base after the energy consumption he was forced to bluff his way out of fighting #20 implies #20 is simply outta base Vegeta's league imo.

Also, if we follow the 2x official multiplier for SSJ2, Perfect Cell at full power should fill up more than 50% of SSJ2 Gohan's power, yet his all out punch at Gohan's face did little more than moving Gohan a little -- it didn't even draw blood as #19's punch did to Vegeta... shouldn't it imply #19 post is likely > 50% of Vegeta's power and then way above the base level?

As for Piccolo being confused as to whether or not the androids were as strong as they thought, keep in mind he thought they were the androids Trunks advised them of, he was only skeptical about their strength matching their expectations, which Vegeta refered to #19 post as not the case. Considering Piccolo also stated, right after Vegeta's arrival, that the story seems to have changed from what happened at the Trunks' timeline, there would be no reason he wouldn't lean more in one hypothesis were it way more likely. The confusion by someone who already admitted the reality doesn't match what was supposed to happen weighs heavily on Piccolo having acquired enough strength to warrant the question.

 

[ahill1]

Which set of numbers do you guys find better?


Android #19 (post) -- 210,000,000
Android #20 (post) -- 220,000,000
Piccolo -- 250,000,000
Trunks SSJ -- 300,000,000
Goku SSJ -- 330,000,000
Vegeta SSJ -- 340,000,000


--------//---------

Android #19 (post) -- 210,000,000
Android #20 (post) -- 230,000,000
Piccolo -- 264,000,000
Trunks SSJ -- 283,000,000
Goku SSJ -- 295,000,000
Vegeta SSJ -- 300,000,000


--------//---------


Android #19 (post) -- 238,000,000
Android #20 (post) -- 260,000,000
Piccolo -- 295,000,000
Trunks SSJ -- 320,000,000
Goku SSJ -- 335,000,000
Vegeta SSJ -- 340,000,000


Trunks from his first show off is 200,000,000 for reference.


The first set of numbers is how I generally have them. The second set tries to follow a more conservative gap between Vegeta and #19 due to Vegeta not fully tanking him and having blood drawn from a punch, which we haven't seen in Cell vs Gohan SSJ2, for instance, which should be below a 2x gap. But in this set, instead of increasing #19's overall number, it lowers Vegeta's a little. In the 3rd set it also tries to follow a smaller gap between Vegeta and #19 but it ups #19 and consequently Gero instead.

So which do you prefer? Maybe the first, not trying to follow a set of tanking gaps look indeed better?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I also think that Vegeta would have commented on the fact that even his base state could defeat the androids if that were the case. The fact that as soon as he turns back to base after the energy consumption he was forced to bluff his way out of fighting #20 implies #20 is simply outta base Vegeta's league imo.

I also think that it would've been commented if 19 or 20 were stronger than Super Saiyans from 3 years ago. Objective statements aren't the only form of validation, Ahill.

#20 isn't an opponent that can be fought by conventional means, he can absorb Vegeta's energy. Piccolo failed to free himself from Gero's hold, and he even warns Gohan that he won't stand a chance if he tries to fight #20. How different would it be to a tired Vegeta?

Also, if we follow the 2x official multiplier for SSJ2, Perfect Cell at full power should fill up more than 50% of SSJ2 Gohan's power, yet his all out punch at Gohan's face did little more than moving Gohan a little -- it didn't even draw blood as #19's punch did to Vegeta... shouldn't it imply #19 post is likely > 50% of Vegeta's power and then way above the base level?

That's a pretty big if Cell did a power up similar to Trunks' (Which I think we both agree it's far above 2x) and still got bodied by Gohan, not to mention Gohan stopping Cell's Kamehameha with half of his power. Seems like this power up is far, far beyond 2x.

As for Piccolo being confused as to whether or not the androids were as strong as they thought, keep in mind he thought they were the androids Trunks advised them of, he was only skeptical about their strength matching their expectations, which Vegeta refered to #19 post as not the case. Considering Piccolo also stated, right after Vegeta's arrival, that the story seems to have changed from what happened at the Trunks' timeline, there would be no reason he wouldn't lean more in one hypothesis were it way more likely. The confusion by someone who already admitted the reality doesn't match what was supposed to happen weighs heavily on Piccolo having acquired enough strength to warrant the question.

I don't see how this changes anything Ahill. You kinda just... Validated the "Were you weaker than we thought?" part of Piccolo's line, and I agree.