Base Saiyans compared to Freeza

[GSM123]

I have, surprisingly, been on the fence about this one for days, so i thought we could have a debate about this. Has any Base Saiyan surpassed Freeza on the original manga? Or is Beerus wrong? Why? Why not? Discuss.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

From a writing point of view, it makes more sense if Freeza is surpassed only by Kaioshins, Androids and Buu.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Has any Base Saiyan surpassed Freeza on the original manga? Or is Beerus wrong? Why? Why not? Discuss.

Beerus' statement need not apply for the manga canon, given Beerus' statement was anime exclusive. Even if treating it as canon, it needn't specifically refer to Goku's strength. Beerus saw Goku's appearance was different from what he saw of his SSJ self fighting Freeza and thus knew he didn't defeat Freeza in his base form. It's as simple as that.

As for evidence for the Base Saiyans' strength, we have Trunks being able to knock Future Cell back with a kiai and have him admit Trunks had improved (keep in mind Cell was prepared for an easy victory against what he knew of Trunks' strength from his fights with #17 and #18), Kids fighting evenly against #18 in a restrictive costume, Vegeta stating he'd still win the Budokai without SSJ despite knowing #18 would compete and the evidence for Base Saiyans > Shin in general.

From a writing point of view, it makes more sense if Freeza is surpassed only by Kaioshins, Androids and Buu.

From a good writing standpoint perhaps. From Toriyama's, having almost everyone worth talking about surpass the previous major threat has been a common trend since the 22nd TB.

 

[GSM123]

From a writing point of view, it makes more sense if Freeza is surpassed only by Kaioshins, Androids and Buu.

Yes, but

In a world where the Boo Arc and Super never existed the Base Saiyans would probably be weaker than Freeza. I wouldn't even think the SSJ is a static multiplier if weren't by the Boo Saga.

Has any Base Saiyan surpassed Freeza on the original manga? Or is Beerus wrong? Why? Why not? Discuss.

Beerus' statement need not apply for the manga canon, given Beerus' statement was anime exclusive. Even if treating it as canon, it needn't specifically refer to Goku's strength. Beerus saw Goku's appearance was different from what he saw of his SSJ self fighting Freeza and thus knew he didn't defeat Freeza in his base form. It's as simple as that.

As for evidence for the Base Saiyans' strength, we have Trunks being able to knock Future Cell back with a kiai and have him admit Trunks had improved (keep in mind Cell was prepared for an easy victory against what he knew of Trunks' strength from his fights with #17 and #18), Kids fighting evenly against #18 in a restrictive costume, Vegeta stating he'd still win the Budokai without SSJ despite knowing #18 would compete and the evidence for Base Saiyans > Shin in general.

From a writing point of view, it makes more sense if Freeza is surpassed only by Kaioshins, Androids and Buu.

From a good writing standpoint perhaps. From Toriyama's, having almost everyone worth talking about surpass the previous major threat has been a common trend since the 22nd TB.

The statement actually came from the BoGs movie that was wrote by Toriyama, Toyotaro probably just wanted to cut it out to speed things up (Like how he also cut the Beerus > Fusion statements). Don't you think assuming it's a comparison to his appearence sounds like reaching when Beerus can sense Ki?

I don't think the Kiai is much when Cell was suppressed to sneak on Trunks, but the his reaction sure means a lot. He looks like he's about to shit himself when he admits Trunks has powered up. Do you think that part implies Base Trunks is > Cell?

CC, what makes you think Vegeta knew #18 was participating? Most people counter this by saying Vegeta didn't give a fuck about #18 and was simply comparing himself to the Saiyans on his statement. And he didn't even want to win the Budokai, he simply wanted to face Goku. He may had even quit the tournament had he faced Goku and won.

I've been kinda skeptical about the implications of Base > Shin nowadays... Shin was pretty much losing it in the Spaceship (He had already sensed SSJ2 Gohan and Goku told him Dabra was no big deal twice). Babidi's estimatives seem kinda flawed when Shin has some pretty good feats vs SSJ2 Gohan and Boo as well.

 

[GSM123]

What do y'all think of Babidi and Dabra calling Piccolo trash and the Saiyans marvelous energy? Does it imply Base > Piccolo > Freeza?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The statement actually came from the BoGs movie that was wrote by Toriyama

So was Beerus using 70% against SSG Galu.

Don't you think assuming it's a comparison to his appearence sounds like reaching when Beerus can sense Ki?

He wouldn't have bothered looking around Goku's body if he were trying to sense his Ki. Goku usually keeps himself suppressed anyway when not in battle, so that wouldn't work.

I don't think the Kiai is much when Cell was suppressed to sneak on Trunks

He had no reason to keep himself suppressed when Trunks forced him out into the open and was prepared for a fight.

He looks like he's about to shit himself when he admits Trunks has powered up. Do you think that part implies Base Trunks is > Cell?

I doubt it. Cell didn't seem to consider things completely hopeless, given how he never tried fleeing with the Taiyoken like against Piccolo.

CC, what makes you think Vegeta knew #18 was participating? Most people counter this by saying Vegeta didn't give a fuck about #18 and was simply comparing himself to the Saiyans on his statement. And he didn't even want to win the Budokai, he simply wanted to face Goku. He may had even quit the tournament had he faced Goku and won.

#18 competing would be common sense in Vegeta's eyes since he knows she's a fighter from first hand experience and would therefor be every bit as likely to compete as her far weaker husband. There was no guarantee he'd get pitted up against Goku before fighting someone such as #18, so he wouldn't say his victory was assured if that variable was a snag in his plans.

I've been kinda skeptical about the implications of Base > Shin nowadays... Shin was pretty much losing it in the Spaceship (He had already sensed SSJ2 Gohan and Goku told him Dabra was no big deal twice). Babidi's estimatives seem kinda flawed when Shin has some pretty good feats vs SSJ2 Gohan and Boo as well.

Shin paralyzing Gohan was an off-guard feat that Gohan didn't know the source of and only lasted a couple of seconds at best. His damage to Boo means little due to Boo just letting people damage him without care due to his regeneration.

What do y'all think of Babidi and Dabra calling Piccolo trash and the Saiyans marvelous energy? Does it imply Base > Piccolo > Freeza?

They were all suppressed, so I wouldn't say so. As for Piccolo, you could always assume he suppressed himself to a lower degree than the others due to his knowledge on the how dire the situation was if Kaioshin was scared making him more cautious.

 

[Victorious]

base Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta at the Cell Games all one shot Freeza IMO. Goku and Gohan base can probably one to 3 shot #17 and #18 too. Though Vegeta and Future Trunks base may lose to #17 and #18.

I go with base Gohan Cell Games >> base Goku Cell Games > base Gohan Buu arc >> Base Trunks Buu saga > base Goten Buu saga ~ Android #18.

RoSaT gains for the Saiyans are just uber haxed. haxed to levels like Kaio's training in the Saiyan arc or the zenkais in the Freeza arc. Just uber hax power ups they got from RoSaT.

 

[ahill1]

I like to have base Goten and Trunks rivaling the androids saga SSJs. Sounds fair with their fight against #18.

 

[Victorious]

I like to have base Goten and Trunks rivaling the androids saga SSJs. Sounds fair with their fight against #18.

I'd say they're at least Imperfect Cell levels. I think they take Android arc SSJs quite easily.

 

[GSM123]

base Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta at the Cell Games all one shot Freeza IMO. Goku and Gohan base can probably one to 3 shot #17 and #18 too. Though Vegeta and Future Trunks base may lose to #17 and #18.

I go with base Gohan Cell Games >> base Goku Cell Games > base Gohan Buu arc >> Base Trunks Buu saga > base Goten Buu saga ~ Android #18.

RoSaT gains for the Saiyans are just uber haxed. haxed to levels like Kaio's training in the Saiyan arc or the zenkais in the Freeza arc. Just uber hax power ups they got from RoSaT.

What do you think about #18 keeping her cool when the boys go SSJ? Doesn't that mean she was holding back against base boys?

Also, their gains being bloated as fuck doesn't have to mean their bases powered up. There are some statements that imply SSJ isn't a static multiplier.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

The saiyans are stronger than Freeza in base.

 

[Pocket-God]

Personally I put the base Saiyans as stronger than Frieza once they're done with the RoSaT. Fusion Reborn shows us clearly that even a weaker base Gohan can one-shot Frieza, yeah it's not cannon but still.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Fusion Reborn shows us clearly that even a weaker base Gohan can one-shot Frieza, yeah it's not cannon but still.

To be fair, his M12 self was probably post-Z Sword training.

 

[Pocket-God]

Oh, you're probably right now that I think about it. Never mind that then 2

 

[p123]

Android 16 > Goku > Vegeta > Gohan > Trunks >= Goten ~ Android 18 >>> Freeza

Vegeta states he can win the tournament without transforming with Android 18 right there. That signifies to me that 18 definitely is inferior, so much so, Vegeta's kid can tangle with her while sitting on Goten's shoulders. Which suggests that Trunks is at least on 18's level, if not higher. Imagine fighting someone who is a real threat to you while on someone's shoulders. Talk about a handicap. I don't think Trunks can one shot 18 clearly, but I am ok with giving the boys a bit of an edge.

Base Future Trunks was able to blow Imperfect Cell away with a kiai.

I think the Base Saiyans are all comfortably ahead of Androids 17 and 18, but I think Android 16 is still a bit stronger than Goku. There is a wide divide between 17/18 and 16. So much so that a heavily amped Light Grenade cannot close the distance. That's a tremendous gap and although the Saiyans have increased their power in their normal form a ton, it's not so much to surpass that gap.


@GreatSaiyaman123

"Marvelous" energy can only be speaking about one thing. Super Saiyan 2 power. No other power can make Piccolo looks like trash and no other power can overflow the Buu meter.