Cage of Time runs a gauntlet

[xenos5]

Hit's best technique seemed to make Jiren struggle and grunt a lot more than even the spirit bomb did. With that in mind how would it fare against opponents weaker than Jiren who might not be able to do what Jiren would struggle with?

1. SSBKKx20 Goku
2. SSB Vegito
3. Beerus
4. Vermoud
5. Ultra Instinct Goku

I believe they would be completely paralyzed. Or at best they would be able to struggle to move at a massively slower rate than Jiren.

And in that case while they're in that state for those that have a vital organ like a heart Hit can use his Shockwave technique while they're immobilized/slowed to stop that organ from functioning and kill them (since it passing through even Jiren in this episode has shown it clearly bypasses durability).

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I doubt that he can beat Vegito given that Vegito has some traits where he can find a tricks to avoid a lot of trouble. But there's no way Hit is gonna pass the Hakaishins since he's definitely weaker than Champa.

 

[xenos5]

I doubt that he can beat Vegito given that Vegito has some traits where he can find a tricks to avoid a lot of trouble. But there's no way Hit is gonna pass the Hakaishins since he's definitely weaker than Champa.

Vermoud ordered Jiren to move and was clearly nervous about the Cage of Time.

But Jiren couldn't just break out of it and after being initially completely paralyzed he still had to constantly struggle and grunt just to slowly move.

Jiren is GoD level+ so for him to struggle to slowly move is seriously impressive.

The Cage of Time is a hax technique and it being effective as it was on Jiren proves it definitely can work on characters outside of Hit's weight class.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I doubt that he can beat Vegito given that Vegito has some traits where he can find a tricks to avoid a lot of trouble. But there's no way Hit is gonna pass the Hakaishins since he's definitely weaker than Champa.

Vermoud ordered Jiren to move and was clearly nervous about the Cage of Time.

But Jiren couldn't just break out of it and after being initially completely paralyzed he still had to constantly struggle and grunt just to slowly move.

Jiren is GoD level+ so for him to struggle to slowly move is seriously impressive.

The Cage of Time is a hax technique and it being effective as it was on Jiren proves it definitely can work on characters outside of Hit's weight class.

Still that doesn't mean that Hit is strong enough to toe with the Hakaishins. For all we know that Belmod is weaker than full powered Jiren and so far, Jiren hasn't use anything close to his power.

 

[xenos5]

Still that doesn't mean that Hit is strong enough to toe with the Hakaishins. For all we know that Belmod is weaker than full powered Jiren and so far, Jiren hasn't use anything close to his power.

Hit's hax technique isn't going toe to toe with a character. It's a last resort/trump card technique.

If Jiren struggled to move could you see a weaker character moving at all?

Whis talked about Jiren being the mortal a god of destruction can't defeat while the spirit bomb clash happened and Jiren still wasn't displaying his full power. So Jiren at that level was as strong or stronger than a god of destruction.

Jiren struggled even more with the time lock than he did with the spirit bomb. Jiren was completely paralyzed initially, still struggled to slowly move after powering up once, and had to power up a second time to be able to block the energy attack with a barrier and be able to crush it.

Jiren stopped struggling with the spirit bomb as soon as he used his glare technique but even his eye powers didn't let Jiren break out of the Cage of Time without struggling and grunting.

 

[Keedounan]

Still that doesn't mean that Hit is strong enough to toe with the Hakaishins. For all we know that Belmod is weaker than full powered Jiren and so far, Jiren hasn't use anything close to his power.

Hit's hax technique isn't going toe to toe with a character. It's a last resort/trump card technique.

If Jiren struggled to move could you see a weaker character moving at all?

Whis talked about Jiren being the mortal a god of destruction can't defeat while the spirit bomb clash happened and Jiren still wasn't displaying his full power. So Jiren at that level was as strong or stronger than a god of destruction.

Jiren struggled even more with the time lock than he did with the spirit bomb. Jiren was completely paralyzed initially, still struggled to slowly move after powering up once, and had to power up a second time to be able to block the energy attack with a barrier and be able to crush it.

Jiren stopped struggling with the spirit bomb as soon as he used his glare technique but even his eye powers didn't let Jiren break out of the Cage of Time without struggling and grunting.

Whis made the comparison while fully aware that Jiren was far from using his full power. His suppressed power doesn't have to be anywhere near Hakaishin level.

 

[xenos5]

Whis made the comparison while fully aware that Jiren was far from using his full power. His suppressed power doesn't have to be anywhere near Hakaishin level.

And how would Whis know Jiren's exact full power that he hasn't displayed yet? He would only be able to judge based on the power Jiren was currently using.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Whis made the comparison while fully aware that Jiren was far from using his full power. His suppressed power doesn't have to be anywhere near Hakaishin level.

And how would Whis know Jiren's exact full power that he hasn't displayed yet? He would only be able to judge based on the power Jiren was currently using.

Because Whis is that good in terms of estimation?

 

[xenos5]

Because Whis is that good in terms of estimation?

There is no proof Whis was referring to Jiren's potential full power. If Whis could estimate that without seeing it he would've known Jiren to be the mortal a god of destruction cannot defeat from the get-go. But he could only really tell when Jiren powered up against the spirit bomb.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Because Whis is that good in terms of estimation?

There is no proof Whis was referring to Jiren's potential full power. If Whis could estimate that without seeing it he would've known Jiren to be the mortal a god of destruction cannot defeat from the get-go. But he could only really tell when Jiren powered up against the spirit bomb.

Whis could very well know how strong is Belmod and the fact that based on his observation of Jiren, he can assume that as well. Sensing is not the only way to make a comparison but also with observations. And with his observation on Jiren, the fact that dude was destroying Goku without breaking a sweat tells you everything.

 

[xenos5]

Whis could very well know how strong is Belmod and the fact that based on his observation of Jiren, he can assume that as well. Sensing is not the only way to make a comparison but also with observations. And with his observation on Jiren, the fact that dude was destroying Goku without breaking a sweat tells you everything.

Was that in any way implied? To me it just looked like Whis was making his observation based on the current level of energy Jiren was using.

Even before the spirit bomb Jiren was clowning SSBKKx20 Goku. So if Whis was just basing it on Goku being destroyed by him than he would've had enough info to make a judgement then. But he didn't.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Whis could very well know how strong is Belmod and the fact that based on his observation of Jiren, he can assume that as well. Sensing is not the only way to make a comparison but also with observations. And with his observation on Jiren, the fact that dude was destroying Goku without breaking a sweat tells you everything.

Was that in any way implied? To me it just looked like Whis was making his observation based on the current level of energy Jiren was using.

Even before the spirit bomb Jiren was clowning SSBKKx20 Goku. So if Whis was just basing it on Goku being destroyed by him than he would've had enough info to make a judgement then. But he didn't.

Whis knew that Jiren was suppress so it's easy for him to assume that Jiren is stronger than a Hakaishin but not in his suppressed state.

 

[xenos5]

Whis knew that Jiren was suppress so it's easy for him to assume that Jiren is stronger than a Hakaishin but not in his suppressed state.

I'd like to see some proof of this. I just don't see any implication from Whis that he was referring to full power Jiren rather than the Jiren that was currently pushing back the spirit bomb.

If Whis had specified that I would believe you. But he didn't.

What you're saying is a possibility. But what i've claimed is equally possible.

 

[Keedounan]

Whis made the comparison while fully aware that Jiren was far from using his full power. His suppressed power doesn't have to be anywhere near Hakaishin level.

And how would Whis know Jiren's exact full power that he hasn't displayed yet?

Who said he knew ? What I said is that Whis made an estimation of Jiren's full power based on his feat against Goku while still vastly holding back. Stating otherwise requires us to assume Whis stated that Jiren is as strong as an Hakaishin while voluntarily ignoring the fact he was still holding back...which, in addition to being an extremely amateurish move on Whis' part (who is a VERY experienced fighter), makes his comparison outright nonsensical: if he knows Jiren is holding back, why would he judge him at Hakaishin level instead of simply saying he's FAR stronger ?

Plus, considering how uncertain he still sounds about the rumor, it's even more likely that he's judging his power on what he's possibly hiding in power instead of what he was witnessing right at this moment. Even more evidence on the favor of that thought is Toei's statement in their website, which places him at Hakaishin level, not above it (let alone in such a large margin).

Because Whis is that good in terms of estimation?

There is no proof Whis was referring to Jiren's potential full power. If Whis could estimate that without seeing it he would've known Jiren to be the mortal a god of destruction cannot defeat from the get-go. But he could only really tell when Jiren powered up against the spirit bomb.

It still doesn't mean Whis was comparing the Hakaishins with Jiren's power against the Genkidama. After all, Goku could only tell Freeza was really holding back a huge part of his power after fighting him quite a bit back on Namek.

Whis could very well know how strong is Belmod and the fact that based on his observation of Jiren, he can assume that as well. Sensing is not the only way to make a comparison but also with observations. And with his observation on Jiren, the fact that dude was destroying Goku without breaking a sweat tells you everything.

Was that in any way implied? To me it just looked like Whis was making his observation based on the current level of energy Jiren was using.

Even before the spirit bomb Jiren was clowning SSBKKx20 Goku. So if Whis was just basing it on Goku being destroyed by him than he would've had enough info to make a judgement then. But he didn't.

Jiren didn't simply destroyed Goku. He destroyed Goku '''while holding a huge part of his power'''. This is important to keep in mind when Whis made the comparison.

Whis knew that Jiren was suppress so it's easy for him to assume that Jiren is stronger than a Hakaishin but not in his suppressed state.

I'd like to see some proof of this. I just don't see any implication from Whis that he was referring to full power Jiren rather than the Jiren that was currently pushing back the spirit bomb.

If Whis had specified that I would believe you. But he didn't.

What you're saying is a possibility. But what i've claimed is equally possible.

He didn't specified he was comparing Jiren's suppressed power as well. And if you ask me to choose between believing that Whis voluntarily ignored a data on Jiren's power (which is him holding back a huge part of his power) before making a comparison, and Whis taking into account everything he saw about Jiren's performance, my choice is already made:

Hakaishin level ~ Jiren (estimated full power) > Belmod > Jiren (suppressed).

EDIT: Rewatched the scene on Youtube. Whis even said:

He's the one who has reached that state (the Hakaishin level). Perhaps even surpassed it.

The "perhaps" suggests he's not sure of his comparison, which wouldn't make much sense if he was talking about a power he was directly witnessing. To me, he was definitely not talking about his suppressed power.

 

[xenos5]

He didn't specified he was comparing Jiren's suppressed power as well. And if you ask me to choose between believing that Whis voluntarily ignored a data on Jiren's power (which is him holding back a huge part of his power) before making a comparison, and Whis taking into account everything he saw about Jiren's performance, my choice is already made:

Hakaishin level ~ Jiren (estimated full power) > Belmod > Jiren (suppressed).

EDIT: Rewatched the scene on Youtube. Whis even said:

He's the one who has reached that state (the Hakaishin level). Perhaps even surpassed it.

The "perhaps" suggests he's not sure of his comparison, which wouldn't make much sense if he was talking about a power he was directly witnessing. To me, he was definitely not talking about his suppressed power.

He stated Jiren had reached Hakaishin level declaratively and was only unsure about him having surpassed it. You could claim Whis referred to full power Jiren as above Hakaishin level but he definitely seemed to be saying the Current Jiren who was dealing with the spirit bomb was Hakaishin Level.

Jiren breaking out of Hit's time cage by destroying the energy orb was also treated with a huge amount of shock (Champa and Goku were completely surprised even after having seen all the things Jiren was previously capable of) and Vados treated Jiren having broken out of it as him ascending time itself (and no god of destruction has been hyped as ascending time itself like that).

 

[Keedounan]

He didn't specified he was comparing Jiren's suppressed power as well. And if you ask me to choose between believing that Whis voluntarily ignored a data on Jiren's power (which is him holding back a huge part of his power) before making a comparison, and Whis taking into account everything he saw about Jiren's performance, my choice is already made:

Hakaishin level ~ Jiren (estimated full power) > Belmod > Jiren (suppressed).

EDIT: Rewatched the scene on Youtube. Whis even said:

He's the one who has reached that state (the Hakaishin level). Perhaps even surpassed it.

The "perhaps" suggests he's not sure of his comparison, which wouldn't make much sense if he was talking about a power he was directly witnessing. To me, he was definitely not talking about his suppressed power.

He stated Jiren had reached Hakaishin level declaratively and was only unsure about him having surpassed it. You could claim Whis referred to full power Jiren as above Hakaishin level but he definitely seemed to be saying the Current Jiren who was dealing with the spirit bomb was Hakaishin Level.

If he was talking about Current Jiren, why he'd be unsure about Jiren being stronger than Hakaishin level in the first place ? Especially when he knows Jiren was still holding back ?

Besides, Whis being unsure isn't my only argument, though. Check the rest of my post.

Jiren breaking out of Hit's time cage by destroying the energy orb was also treated with a huge amount of shock (Champa and Goku were completely surprised even after having seen all the things Jiren was previously capable of) and Vados treated Jiren having broken out of it as him ascending time itself (and no god of destruction has been hyped as ascending time itself like that).

Couldn't Goku still move during Hit's Tokitobashi back in U6, which is basically ascending time itself too ? Besides, a lack of evidence isn't an evidence.

Goku was also shocked his Kamehameha didn't work on Freeza even though he didn't powered up. Same with Raditz, and several others battles in the manga. Hit's technique was so powerful that it was unbelievable to see it fail so much, even though they should have known better.

 

[xenos5]

If he was talking about Current Jiren, why he'd be unsure about Jiren being stronger than Hakaishin level in the first place ? Especially when he knows Jiren was still holding back ?

Because he'd have no way of knowing exactly how much Jiren would still be holding back. He could end up not holding that much left back and just be high tier god of destruction level (on the level of the strongest gods of destruction, which are probably the ones from the four exempt universes) rather than above god of destruction level entirely.

Couldn't Goku still move during Hit's Tokitobashi back in U6, which is basically ascending time itself too ? Evidence of absence isn't an evidence.

Hit's time cage is massively above any variation of timeskip.

It focuses timeskip on a single target rather than the entire surrounding area (so all that stored time energy in Hit's pocket dimension is condensed to
a single point). And judging from how Hit was planning to use it to keep Jiren frozen for the rest of the tournament we know it can be used for up to 20 minutes or more (the amount of time remaining left in the tournament) in comparison to Hit's usual timeskip which usually goes for less than a second or at most a few minutes (when Hit talked to the mob boss).

After Vados stated Jiren ascended time itself Vermoud and Marcarita talked about how Jiren was "on another level" or "in a class of his own". If breaking out of the time cage was something Vermoud easily could've done himself I don't see why they would be treating it in this way.

Heck Vermoud also seemed nervous/concerned when Jiren initially couldn't move with the time cage on him.

Ascending time means no time based technique can fully stop you for a decent amount of time. I think you would need a requisite feat to prove you are fully immune to the most powerful variation of time hax in Hit's disposal (or be so far above god of destruction level that it's a different order of magnitude. low Angel tier or higher basically).

Goku was also shocked his Kamehameha didn't work on Freeza even though he didn't powered up. Same with Raditz, and several others battles in the manga. Hit's technique was so powerful that it was unbelievable to see it fail so much, even though they should have known better.

Hit's technique made Jiren struggle and grunt constantly to slowly move. Even the spirit bomb didn't make Jiren struggle to that extent.

Let's not underplay what Hit managed to accomplish with it.

Jiren even gave Hit the same respect as UI Goku after that saying at the end "the warriors i'm needed for... ...are already gone".

Jiren put forth more effort against that technique than he did against the spirit bomb (or even possibly against UI Goku considering he didn't constantly grunt or seem to heavily strain himself while fighting UI Goku). Whether or not it was his full power it was a significant portion of his power required just to slowly move. And he couldn't straight up break out of the technique until he broke the energy orb that was the source of it.

 

[Keedounan]

If he was talking about Current Jiren, why he'd be unsure about Jiren being stronger than Hakaishin level in the first place ? Especially when he knows Jiren was still holding back ?

Because he'd have no way of knowing exactly how much Jiren would still be holding back.

He knew it was by a massive amount. And Jiren's fight with UI Goku did nothing to prove him otherwise. Also, since you seemingly don't want to address my other post, I'll just repeat my points:

His true power is said to be at level Hakaishin. With that, it's even more likely that Whis simply estimated his full power instead of talking about his current power. Which makes even more sense considering the whole context of the scene: Jiren dominating SSJB Goku's Genkidama with KKx20, while vastly holding back.

You can't ignore that one part when Whis talked about Jiren's power. He'd say that "even at this level, he's at Hakaishin-tier" instead of simply stating he is at Hakaishin-tier. But he didn't, so he was talking about Jiren's power in general instead of simply a power he saw one time and knows it's far from being his limit.

As for Hit's hax technique that you brought up, while you're right about Hit's technique being powerful (which I never denied in the first place), I'm simply not comfortable with assuming that and Hakaishin or even Angels (even at low-level, I think it's an unreasonable degree to put it) just because we never saw them do it, nor were they stated to be able to do it. Not only you'd have to apply this logic to Daishinkan or Zen'Oh too (and I have no doubt they can), but the Hakaishins and Angels would have no reason to fight Hit (who is the most powerful time user of the franchise so far) anyways, and since they will probably get erased, we'll probably never be able to find out.

For now, I still stand with Jiren's full power (or at least his estimated one) at Hakaishin-tier, which is the minimum required, as well as the most reasonable level (again, for now).