Can a SSJ surpass a SSJ2?

[ahill1]

I've seen people arguing before that a SSJ can't surpass a SSJ2 due to the manga expressing the existence of a SSJ wall:


Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P10.5
Context: after Goku makes Yakon explode with his Super Saiyan aura
Vegeta: “So that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall…The Super Saiyan wall…”

 

[Animelover5487]

Hmm? Goku briefly gave a Super Saiyan 2 burst which Vegeta noticed, hence Goku surpassing Super Saiyan.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Even if SSjin gets stronger, its SSjin2 power even greater. That's the set of SSjin transformation and its fix.

 

[SSJ2]

This topic.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta is talking about Goku surpassing the SSJ and turning a SSJ2.

 

[Papasmurf]

A lower form can surpass a higher form like SSJ Vegeta in the CG far surpassing Ssjg2

 

[withheldforprivacy]

-Common sense/fine writing: No lower form should surpass a higher form.
-AT's bullshit: Base Gohan vs SSJ Trunks, ''My Bulma'' Vegeta.

 

[The_Authority]

Like... Super Saiyan Vegetto surpassed Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and Goku, but... a character that can become Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 cannot push Super Saiyan power past his own Super Saiyan 2 power. I look at things differently. People look at them as like separate entities, but I look at them as one being. Basically by pushing out more power, they'd turn into Super Saiyan 2, so by that bare thought, Super Saiyan can never be more powerful.

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

Z logic: You can come close, but a pure Saiyan can't surpass an SSJ2 with SSJ. Obviously that doesn't apply to fusions, and if we assume Gohan's Ultimate power represents his max power he could've gained as an SSJ3 someday, he could easily surpass SSJ2 or even SSJ3 with SSJ.

GT/Super logic: You can easily surpass an SSJ3 in your base form.

 

[ahill1]

But by calling it SSJ "wall" aren't they establishing there being a limit to how strong a SSJ can become?

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Yes. For the love of God a Super Saiyan can in theory be stronger than a Super Saiyan 2, lower forms can be greater than higher forms as was proven in the History of Trunks (Manga Version) where Future Trunks was being easily beaten by Base form Gohan.

 

[Flame]

Goku for example can't surpass his Super Saiyan 2 as a Super Saiyan. If his Super Saiyan gets more powerful then when he transforms to Super Saiyan 2, it'd be more powerful.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Goku for example can't surpass his Super Saiyan 2 as a Super Saiyan. If his Super Saiyan gets more powerful then when he transforms to Super Saiyan 2, it'd be more powerful.

This, after all the SSjin forms are multiplier right? So its fixed.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

But by calling it SSJ "wall" aren't they establishing there being a limit to how strong a SSJ can become?

"Wall" and "limits" have always been flexible terms in DB. Vegeta considered his last Zenkai on Namek to be his limit, yet that was far from the case. The wall of SSJ likely refers to within their own limits of training, as they wouldn't get much stronger by just doing the same thing. They'd need a new method of training or one of higher intensity to break these walls.
Taking things from a real life perspective, say you're a bodybuilder capable of lifting the heaviest weights in a gym. After you've reached the level wherein it's no longer a challenge (as unrealistic as such may be), you wouldn't really do much other than stabilise and maintain your current peak. You'd need to add more intensity to your training through new methods, such as more reps/sets or circuit training. In that respect, the Super Saiyans wouldn't get strong enough to surpass their current SSJ power in their base form through doing the same level of training. Breaking through the SSJ wall speaks in context to this.

 

[Zippy]

I dont see why as a seperate person a super saiyan cannot be stronger than an ssj2 but obviously its not possible for the same dude (im pretty sure the first one is the question at hand)

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

I'm sure SSJ 4 Raditz would be weaker than Namek Goku, so...

 

[freezamite]

I've seen people arguing before that a SSJ can't surpass a SSJ2 due to the manga expressing the existence of a SSJ wall:


Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P10.5
Context: after Goku makes Yakon explode with his Super Saiyan aura
Vegeta: “So that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall…The Super Saiyan wall…”

I always understood that in terms of transformations. Goku had surpassed his SSJ wall, but since Vegeta had always been a much stronger fighter his SSJ (if properly trained) could surpass Goku's SSJ2, the same way Vegeta SSJ2 was much, much stronger than Goku's SSJ3 from BoG onwards.