Cell's Analysis

[Pakl]

Imperfect Cell

Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P3.5
Context: after Goku recovers from his illness
Goku: “The way I am now, I definitely can’t beat the androids or this ‘Cell’ guy.”

Imperfect Cell (Pre Humans) > SSjin Vegeta >/~ SSjin Goku.

Chapter: 370 (DBZ 176), P10.1-2
Context: after Cell is hit by Piccolo’s powerful ki blast
No.18: “He did it!”
No.16: “No, he didn’t. [Cell] has hardly taken any damage.”

That might be one of the greatest feats in the series. Imperfect Cell (Post Humans) tanks Piccolo's Light Grenade which should be 3.5X amplified. That puts Imperfect Cell (Post Humans) 5X stronger than Piccolo at the least. Piccolo was equal to Android 17.

Imperfect Cell (Post Humans) >> Piccolo's Light Grenade >>> Piccolo ~ Android 17.

Semi Perfect Cell

Chapter: 372 (DBZ 178), P14.1
Goku: “Cell’s ki just swelled up extraordinarily…Th-this is bad…Looks like he’s absorbed either No.17 or No.18…”

Semi Perfect Cell >>> Imperfect Cell.

Tanking a punch from Android 16 suggests a 2X gap. Android 16 was about equal to Imperfect Cell.

Perfect Cell vs Vegeta

Initial Perfect Cell Tanks USSjin Vegeta's FP kick which is more impressive than tanking a punch. That suggets a 2X Gap at minimum.

Cell tanks USSjin Vegeta's Final Flash which only destroys his arm but Cell quickly regenerates himself. The Final Flash should be should be 4X amplified at minimum

Cell goes through USSjin Vegeta's blasts.

Initial Perfect Cell >>> USSjin Trunks.

Cell beats USSjin Vegeta with one elbow which makes Vegeta go back to base because he fainted.

Perfect Cell vs Goku

Chapter: 399 (DBZ 205), P14.4
Context: after circling behind Goku
Cell: “I’m confident in my speed too. Even if I can’t Teleport.”

Goku can't see Cell's movements as he is too fast for him.

Chapter: 401 (DBZ 207), P9.2
Context: after blowing the top of Cell’s body off
Goku: “What is this?...Despite being in that condition, he still has a lot of ki left…”

Cell's upper body gets blown away by FPSSjin Goku's Kamehameha but he still has most of his power intact and can regenerate himself.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P10.5
Context: when Goku refuses to eat a senzu
Cell: “What’s the matter? Is your pride preventing you from eating a senzu? I’ve lost quite a lot of stamina now. If you regain your full power, the chance of you being able to win will increase just a little bit. I want to have even more fun…!”

Cell wants Goku to eat a senzu beam so he can amuse him even more. Cell is not taking Goku seriously and can beat his FPSSjin state even when he is worn out which suggests a big gap. Remember, Cell was also suppressed.

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P14.4-5
Context: after Goku fights Cell at full power for a bit
Cell: “Excellent, Son Goku! This is it! Battles aren’t interesting unless [the fighters’] true power is close to a certain extent like this.”
Goku: “Yeah…I think so too.”

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P10.1
Vegeta: “It drives me crazy, but I’ll admit it…Despite doing all that special training, I didn’t surpass Kakarot…Th-that *******’s a genius…But Cell is 1 or 2 steps above even him…”

Vegeta says Cell is still 1 or 2 steps ahead of FPSSjin Goku which once again suggests a big gap.

Trunks wants to give Goku a Senzu so they would all fight this weakened suppressed Cell then maybe they can win which suggests that without Goku they all would get their asses kicked by a weakened suppressed Cell.

Powered Up Perfect Cell >/~ FPSSjin Goku.

Perfect Cell vs Gohan

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

Cell easily beat FPSSjin Kid Gohan who is stronger than FPSSjin Goku by just using his full suppressed speed.

Powered Up Suppression Cell > FPSSjin Kid Gohan.

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P3.5
Context: after Gohan says he can beat Cell
Cell: “Well then, I’ll show you…! My fearsome true power…!”

Cell is still confident he can beat SSjin 2 Kid Gohan by using his full power despite the fact he saw how he one shotted the Cell Juniors who are somewhat stronger than Cell Games SSjin Vegeta who is stronger than 50% MSSjin Goku. That means Full Power Perfect Cell can one shot the Cell Jrs as well. The Cell Jrs are 70% of FPSSjin Goku IMO. That already proves how Full Power Perfect Cell can easily beat the Z Fighters by using his full power.

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P8.2-4
Context: after Cell powers up
Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”
Kuririn: “This ki is so astounding, it’s like the entire Earth is shaking.”
Gohan: “What’s the big deal?”

Cell then powers up to his full power which took him a pretty good time which proves Cell was holding back a lot of his power vs Goku and Gohan which means Full Power Perfect Cell should be way stronger than FPSSjin Goku and Gohan. Cell's power up trembled the Earth and amazed the Z Fighters who could not even stand on the ground.

Full Power Perfect Cell >>> FPSSjin Kid Gohan > FPSSjin Goku.

I have Full Power Perfect Cell 2.875X stronger than FPSSjin Goku and 2.395X stronger than FPSSjin Kid Gohan.

Super Perfect Cell

Chapter: 413 (DBZ 219), P10.1, P11.3-4, P12.1
Context: after regenerating from his self-destruction
Cell: “There’s a small clump inside my head…This makes up my nucleus…As long as that clump isn’t destroyed, my body can continue regenerating…When I self-destructed, my nucleus fortunately remained uninjured…Quite frankly, I hadn’t calculated on being able to regenerate…I was lucky…And even more happily, my body regenerated as my perfect form, even without No.18…And it wasn’t merely my perfect form: I had vastly powered up like Son Gohan…This was probably done by the Saiyan cells, which greatly increase in power when they are saved from the brink of death…And I even managed to learn Son Goku’s Teleportation…So in short, I was able to return here, having become even more perfect. It seems that rather than defeat me, Son Goku has given me several presents.”

Cell states he had powered up like Gohan and has lightning surrounding his aura which means he has power similar to SSjin 2 Kid Gohan and he is SSjin 2 tier.

Cell easily tanks all of SSjin Vegeta's blasts and beat him with just 1 slap.

Cell uses a small blast in order to beat SSjin Vegeta and Gohan got hurt by defending him. Gohan's arm got broken by Cell's uncharged blast which proves Super Perfect Cell rivals SSjin 2 Kid Gohan and was very close to his power.

SSjin 2 Kid Gohan >/~ Super Perfect Cell.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I don't think we have a disagreement here.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Why is Piccolo's blast amplified by 3.5x?

 

[Pakl]

Why is Piccolo's blast amplified by 3.5x?

I made this post long time ago following the ki amp based on Goku's KHH amp vs Raditz which was 2.22x. The amp was implied to be even greater in the Androids Saga. Though, I am not longer going by that.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

It looked like you made this post today l0l.

 

[GSM123]

Other than SPC who’s likely much weaker than Gohan I agree with everything here. There isn’t much to discuss about Cell’s power.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

He can't be that lower, even Gohan under-estimated him. Cell'd have to be brain-dead to come-back like he did, after the ownage he got before, if he wasn't at-least some-what within rivalling range.

 

[Pakl]

I thought this all Cell being much weaker was Youtubers shit years ago. Its obvious by the aura and strength that he is on Gohans level

 

[GSM123]

He can't be that lower, even Gohan under-estimated him. Cell'd have to be brain-dead to come-back like he did, after the ownage he got before, if he wasn't at-least some-what within rivalling range.

Gohan admitting he underestimated Cell doesn’t mean much when Gohan also claimed he could’ve teared Cell to pieces if not injured.

He doesn’t necessarily have to be comparable to Gohan to be so confident, he can always blow up the planet if things go wrong.

Cell’s power was treated very poorly in the Boo Arc, with Goku even saying he wouldn’t be an issue anymore. Doesn’t sound like he was a rival to Gohan, whose power was a measuring stick in the Boo Arc.

I thought this all Cell being much weaker was Youtubers shit years ago. Its obvious by the aura and strength that he is on Gohans level

If the aura is a signal of rivalry, then I suppose SSJ2 Vegeta and SSJ3 Goku are pretty close.

Talking about strength, Cell made clear he was going for the kill this time but couldn’t instantly overwhelm a Gohan who was at less than half his power.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Those don't have to be contradictory. He can stills defeat him but not do that easily.

That's a big stretch. I don't know what's the point of coming-up with these big excuses. Cell pre-Zenkai was going as far as to blow himself up (basically kill himself) to win and him trying to blow-up earth didn't work either last time I checked because Gohan just send his KHH right back to him.

Goku doesn't know SPC's power l0l. He couldn't sense him, best he could go off of is Full-Power Cell, pre-Zenkai.

Besides Cell was dead, rivalling or not rivalling, at this point it doesn't really make sense to bring-up someone who's been dead for 7 years, especially if said someone wasn't leagues ahead of everyone (he was of everyone-else but not Gohan).

You are reaching again with what you replied to Pakl with. Electricity is a trait for SSJ2s and SSJ3s, that's something that's there regardless of anything. Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with power. In the Cell saga, Gohan was the only one who had electricity around him until Cell came-back. That's clearly supposed to show us that the only two with electricity are probably close to each-other in-terms of power. You can't say Nappa was on-par with them because he had electricity, there's a clear difference. Doesn't make sense other-wise from a story-telling perspective.

 

[GSM123]

This is a much stronger Cell, one who if he can’t manage to overwhelm Gohan on hand to hand this time, he’ll at least be able to bounce back Gohan’s Kamehameha this time.

What makes you think Goku can’t sense SPC’s Ki out of nowhere?

Cell was brought up to explain how weak Dabra is currently but how strong he was 7 years ago. So it makes perfect sense for him to be brought up here, as he’s above SSJ1 level but fodder to SSJ2s.

The very example with Nappa shows electricity just portrays someone as strong, not necessarily a specific power level or form.

If we’re talking about story-telling, then there’s Gohan being conveniently weakened right before having to fight Cell, instead of being rivaled by Cell while at full force.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Did Goku ever sense anyone from Kaio's realm before this? I don't remember.

Again that feels like such a stretch. What's the point of going to those lengths for explanation when the most obvious answer is probably the intended one.

Gohan was an SSJ against Dabura. 2 2 2

See that's what I mean by the counter to the electricity argument you're making. It makes no sense. Yeah, before characters were shown to have electricity at times, but for one the electricity wasn't shown to be around consistently and second in this saga that makes all the difference. Electricity is one of the defining traits of SSJ2. It's almost like we are told that Cell reached the same level of power. Cell even says so by stating he powered-up greatly like Gohan. Why don't Piccolo or Vegeta or Trunks have electricity around them? Does that mean they are lower than Nappa?

Not conviniently, but for the sake of drama because a fight/brawl after Goku just sacrificed himself wouldn't make sense. That was also done for Vegeta's character-devolopment since Cell killed Trunks and Gohan defended Vegeta. In-fact I can just as-well say that Cell injuring Gohan like that with just a blast shows that at-least he's somewhere within-in the same realm of power.

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Fantastische Hure[/mention]

Did Goku ever sense anyone from Kaio's realm before this? I don't remember.

He had just sensed Kaio’s Ki in order to teleport to his planet chapters prior. It takes a SSJ3 power to grab your attention, but any Ki can be sensed with enough focus.

Again that feels like such a stretch. What's the point of going to those lengths for explanation when the most obvious answer is probably the intended one.

Gohan also had the same confidence as Cell, so it’s not so black and white as you think. I’m saying this because unlike Gohan, Cell has no problems to survive without the Earth.

Gohan was an SSJ against Dabura.

Boy, Imma jump head on into this can of worms:

See that's what I mean by the counter to the electricity argument you're making. It makes no sense. Yeah, before characters were shown to have electricity at times, but for one the electricity wasn't shown to be around consistently and second in this saga that makes all the difference. Electricity is one of the defining traits of SSJ2. It's almost like we are told that Cell reached the same level of power. Cell even says so by stating he powered-up greatly like Gohan. Why don't Piccolo or Vegeta or Trunks have electricity around them? Does that mean they are lower than Nappa?

But you had just said this:

[Sparks] Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with power.

So which one is it? Does it indicate power or not?

Not conviniently, but for the sake of drama because a fight/brawl after Goku just sacrificed himself wouldn't make sense. That was also done for Vegeta's character-devolopment since Cell killed Trunks and Gohan defended Vegeta. In-fact I can just as-well say that Cell injuring Gohan like that with just a blast shows that at-least he's somewhere within-in the same realm of power.

Why wouldn’t a brawl make sense, but a beam struggle would?

Narrative wise there’d be no point on Gohan losing such a big portion of his power if Cell were already a rival to his power. He could’ve just shrugged off or have taken less damage and engage in the beam struggle, rather than lose the majority of his power.

Maybe, but pay attention at the blast:

Spoiler

It’s Freeza’s Death Beam. It’s a technique powerful enough that he expected it

 

[Fantastische Hure]

OK about Kaio, but still I never got the impression he actually felt Cell's Ki considering he never actually said anything about it.

Gohan & Cell both are confident, so why can't that mean rivalling? Makes sense to me.

Meng, I'm honestly not sure whether you really can't see what I'm saying or you're just saying that because you don't care what I mean. I'll say it like this:

Normally, yeah when they had electricity before that used to obviously mean they got way higher but in this section of the story, those are two different things. One of SSJ2s defining traits is electricity. No-one else had them at the Cell-Games, especially no-one had them ever consistently before, aside from Gohan and then Cell. The electricity in this case means SSJ2 (level) power. It's no coincidence that only Gohan and Cell had that. What does Cell need to do? Get spiky hair for us to understand that he's SSJ2 level?

Cell had already shown his power-weighted form before too.

To add drama. Gohan with much lower power going-up against a newly powered-up Cell seemed like a hopeless situation and that's what that was meant to be I think.

OK but something-else. How do you counter this?:

Every saga before and after the Cell saga in the original had a fight between two rivals in power (usually top-tiers of said saga) as the climatic fight ending a saga:

Spoiler

Legends of the DragonBall - Doesn't really have anything like that

21st Tenkaichi-Budokai - Goku vs Master-Roshi

Red-Ribbon-Army - Goku vs Grandpa Gohan

22nd Tenkaichi-Budokai - Goku vs Tenshinhan

Piccolo-Daimao - Goku vs Piccolo-Daimao (Young)

23rd Tenkaichi-Budokai - Goku vs Piccolo Jr.

Freeza saga - SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza

Boo saga - SSJ3 Goku vs Kid Boo

Now why would, Gohan vs Cell be the exception to what looks like a rule?

 

[GSM123]

[mention]Fantastische Hure[/mention] To put things into perspective , I’m basing my view mostly on Goku’s statement during the Boo Arc, that Cell’s not a big deal anymore. Although this could fit in a chain of Goku >= Enraged Gohan > Regular Gohan ~ SPC, there’s Enraged Gohan being implied to be the strongest and a rusty Gohan still fending off Dabra (Who’s even better than Cell thanks to magic), so Piccolo must be referring to Regular SSJ2 Gohan when talking about Majin Vegeta (Who is Goku’s equal), pulling SPC down as even Pre Majin Vegeta looks down on him.

As far as the Cell Games goes, I’d say Cell’s power is very vague. He does have confidence indeed, but that’d only be the definitive evidence if you strip Cell’s statement of any context in the story. The point you raised about the final battle being one of rivals only further adds to my point: Gohan had to be weakened for the final battle to be fair, much like Majin Boo had to be powered down to fight Goku fairly.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Not a fair comparison. Boo had to change forms. In the end the fight was still Boo vs Goku, just like Gohan vs Cell was. No-one changed forms, if anything Cell showed he had power in the same league with injuring Gohan the way he did with almost no effort.

If we have to go with the SSJ2 route for the Dabura fight, SSJ2 Gohan > Dabura >~ FP Cell makes much more sense to me, since that was the form Gohan humiliated at the Cell-Games. So Gohan only barely fighting on-par with that level of power shows how much his power has lowered.

 

[GSM123]

Why does Boo transforming makes it a unfair comparison? He was still powered down for the sake of the fight nonetheless.

Cell’s blast was portrayed as the Death Beam, a technique 50% Freeza expected it to kill SSJ Goku after being bodied. It’s not surprising Cell could hurt Gohan that badly with it.

Even on his super perfect form he was humiliated, losing the beam struggle. The fact a level is never specified would imply they’re either talking about Cell on general terms or referring to his strongest power.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Yeah, powered-down but it's a different form. I'd agree if somehow Gohan went back to normal and Cell for what-ever reason reverted back to imperfect form. Then your comparison'd make sense, in this case however not. In Boo's case it was a completely different Boo against Goku, a Boo that rivalled. In the Cell saga, SPC rivalled Gohan. Not hard to see in my opinion.

Was not. He was anything but humiliated, he got defeated yeah but it was humiliating. If anything what does it tell you that Goku explicitly told Gohan at the very point where Cell was distracted to defeat him?