Could Gohan (Boo arc) be equal to his CG self outside of SSJ2?

Keedounan

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According to the Daizenshuu 2, due to neglecting his training Gohan's power hasn't changed from when he was a boy.

Many years after the battle with Cell, Gohan had become a high school student. Due to either Chi Chi's influence or him neglecting to train, his strength hadn't changed since he was a boy.

Yet, in the very same section, they say that in his SSJ2 form, due to not training and not gaining power from anger, he's weaker than his CG self.

During the Tenkaichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same battle power as when he defeated Cell.

So, they've gone for quite an interesting interpretation of Gohan's strength...and they might have been onto something.

After all, Gohan did manage to fair...not too badly, against the Cell-level oppobent that was Dabura. CG Gohan had a somewhat similar performance, with the main difference that his performance back then had to do with the fact he didn't want to fight, while Boo arc Gohan had lost his instincts as a fighter.

Also, when Goku asks if Gohan has been training properly, even though Vegeta says that their strengths were now superior to his because he enjoyed peace too much, he does point out that there is no telling what would happen if he went in a frenzy.

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…”

In fact, Goku made it a point to tell him to get angry in order to draw out all the power he had.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6
Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

Chapter: 460 (DBZ 266), P10.2-3
Context: after Boo seems to be dead on arrival
Kaioshin: “Goku and Vegeta are probably having a roughly even fight…I’ll pin Babidi down. After that, if you can manage to defeat Dabra, then Babidi’s scheme will be completely wiped out! So then! Now’s the time to get angry, like Goku said! Get angry and show me your true power! Gohan, peace is almost at hand!”

Now, why would why Gohan have the same power as from back then, if he hasn't trained for years? Well, if Saiyans' biology like ours do (well, sort of), Gohan's increase in strength as he was going through his puberty could have mitigated his power decrease from being out of practice.

The main problems this would have are:

1)Vegeta complaining about Gohan being "pathetic. So much that he was stronger as a brat"...when he was fighting a SSJ (for those who believe he was. It's still quite a debate these days), though one could argue that it was a call-back to his previous statement. After all, not even Gohan from back then could beat Perfect Cell, even when he was holding back.

2)Shin saying that Kibito was dead, so he couldn't how amazing the 3 Saiyans were, including Gohan. But we're talking about the guys who respectively doubted the Saiyans' ability to take Pui-Pui and Yakon by themselves and pull out the Z-Sword despite having seen his SSJ2 power, you can easily dismiss it as a plot alzheimer on both their parts.

What do you think about this?
 

Captain Cadaver

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Well, it does support the idea of Gohan having some sort of rage boost to cover the gap between pre and post-Majin Vegeta, if nothing else.

As you mentioned, however, Vegeta specifically refers to strength in one of his statements rather than purely skill, which puts a whole wrench in what could otherwise be a decent idea. Evidence from the source material always trumps conflicting evidence from supplementary material, so I'd side with Vegeta referring to strength.

As for the statements about Gohan's rage, I wouldn't say they mean much. Gohan's boosts have always been pretty plot dependent and have completely trumped that of any of his allies on at least 2 occasions (3 if including his SS2 transformation) and as you suggested, his body is now more appropriate for battle to the point he should be able to harness greater power than ever with the right situation.
 

Tapion

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I find it a perfectly fine, acceptable conclusion that I integrate into the manga myself.

Every single statement made about a power drop concerns Gohan's SSJ2 power. The manga tells us much of the same thing; that SSJ2 Gohan's power is entirely dependent on his anger. It makes sense that his power has remained unchanged in every other form.
 

withheldforprivacy

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Considering how SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks fared against SSJ Gohan and SSJ Vegeta respectively, I think it makes more sense for SSJ Gohan to be his CGs self in power.
 

Captain Cadaver

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withheldforprivacy said:
Considering how SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks fared against SSJ Gohan and SSJ Vegeta respectively
Goten and Gohan were presented as near equal in sparring, whereas Vegeta was able to dodge almost all of Trunks' attacks (with the one that hit barely doing so at all) and still show a solid superiority.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Other than the (questionable) idea of Gohan being a Super Saiyan 1 against Dabra, everything would point towards Gohan merely losing power as as a Super Saiyan 2. Only statements about being weaker are made when he’s a SSJ2 and Daizenshuu corroborates this notion.
 

Papasmurf

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It's said repeatedly that Gohan has gotten weaker due to not keeping up his training, so I see no reason to assume the power drop was exclusive to his SSJ2 state.
 

Tapion

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That's never stated to be the case for any form but Super Saiyan 2, and even then it's noted that him not being angry like he was "back then" is the main reason.
 

Tapion

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That's never stated to be the case for anyone but Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, and even then it's noted that him not being angry like he was "back then" is the main reason.
 

Papasmurf

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I believe Gohan to be SSJ against Dabura as the artwork shows, and he's clearly noted to be weaker from slacking there. Vegeta also speculated he'd have weakened as early as the Great Saiyaman portion of the arc, and the later incidents just confirmed it. It's not solely a matter of rage at all.
 

Tapion

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> Gohan being a SSJ1

That's a personal mental issue you need to deal with yourself then. :et :et :et :tapion
 

Papasmurf

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039.jpg


The aura doesn't lie. :et :et
 

Tapion

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Guess Goku was a SSJ1 against Yakon, then. :et
 

Papasmurf

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One panel where the transformation arguably wasn't completed =/= consistent lack of lightning for an entire fight :elmo
 

Papasmurf

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Anyways, that's not what I want to argue about. Gohan is stated on at least two occasions (three if you count the GS mini-arc portion) to have lost power due to slacking, and that's independent of rage.
 

Captain Cadaver

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Surprised we had to wait until the thread's post count entered the double digits for this to shift into the "What form was Gohan using?" debate. :mikey
 

withheldforprivacy

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Captain Cadaver said:
withheldforprivacy said:
Considering how SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks fared against SSJ Gohan and SSJ Vegeta respectively
Goten and Gohan were presented as near equal in sparring, whereas Vegeta was able to dodge almost all of Trunks' attacks (with the one that hit barely doing so at all) and still show a solid superiority.

Well, I also have Vegeta equal to his Majin self outside of SSJ2.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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I honestly don't understand how Gohan losing power in one form. There's not a single reason to believe the forms are conected like that, and we have zero evidence Base or SSJ Gohan. All Vegeta does before seeing SSJ2 Gohan is speculate on his rustiness and he doesn't say a word when Gohan becomes a Super Saiyan upon :bitch beating Videl. Daizenshuu 2 is the icing on the cake here.
 

Let's Go Fearless!

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The story was very clear on this matter. Gohan has gotten so weak and Vegeta was disgusted by it.
 
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