Create a PL List That Makes The Daizenshuu Work
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@Hokuten - I think the gap between Freeza Final Form (initial) and Freeza (3rd Form) is too low. Vegeta and Piccolo were sweating as hell and Piccolo even said that this form makes his previous form look gentle. I think it's implied more than a 1.2x type of gap.
Following the Daizenshuu's numbers for Goku and Freeza, I'd have:
FREEZA ARC PART 1
Kuririn 200,000
Son Gohan 250,000
Piccolo 300,000
Vegeta 480,000
Freeza (1st Form) 530,000
FREEZA ARC PART 2
Son Gohan (Enranged) 960,000
Freeza (2nd Form) 1,060,000
~ Powered Up 1,200,000
~ Full Power 1,400,000
Piccolo (after fusing w/Nail weighted) 1,250,000
~ W/o Weights 1,500,000
Son Gohan (Zenkai) 900,000
~Enranged + Masenko 1,800,000
Freeza (3rd Form) 1,850,000
Vegeta (Zenkai) 2,400,000
Freeza Final Form (initial) 2,600,000
Son Goku 3,000,000
~ Kaioken x10 30,000,000
~ Kaioken x20 60,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 150,000,000
Freeza Final Form (Speedup) 3,250,000
~ 50% 60,000,000
~ 100% 120,000,000
Following the Daizenshuu's numbers for Goku and Freeza, I'd have:
FREEZA ARC PART 1
Kuririn 200,000
Son Gohan 250,000
Piccolo 300,000
Vegeta 480,000
Freeza (1st Form) 530,000
FREEZA ARC PART 2
Son Gohan (Enranged) 960,000
Freeza (2nd Form) 1,060,000
~ Powered Up 1,200,000
~ Full Power 1,400,000
Piccolo (after fusing w/Nail weighted) 1,250,000
~ W/o Weights 1,500,000
Son Gohan (Zenkai) 900,000
~Enranged + Masenko 1,800,000
Freeza (3rd Form) 1,850,000
Vegeta (Zenkai) 2,400,000
Freeza Final Form (initial) 2,600,000
Son Goku 3,000,000
~ Kaioken x10 30,000,000
~ Kaioken x20 60,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 150,000,000
Freeza Final Form (Speedup) 3,250,000
~ 50% 60,000,000
~ 100% 120,000,000
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The only way to create such a list is to go with 1m being the max of Freeza's 2nd form. Base Goku must be about 2x stronger than Vegeta/Initial
4th Form Freeza, since he deflected a barrage of death beams, like SSJ Goku did with 50% Freeza.
4th Form Freeza, since he deflected a barrage of death beams, like SSJ Goku did with 50% Freeza.
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There is an error in your first portion. As Piccolo is coming to help them (after arriving on Namek), he senses three huge power levels: Frieza, Vegeta & Gohan. Therefore you have Krillen way too powerful, the 75,000 figure from the Daizenshuu fits perfectly. Secondly, Vegeta said the three of them can find a way to win; 'finding a way to win' obviously speaks in terms that excludes battle power. So you've also got Vegeta too powerful.
If Vegeta was as powerful as you think he is, he could just go in and fight Frieza without the need of the others; and probably win all by himself. However, he needs the help of Gohan, especially his rage boost. In addition, Toriyama's interview says that Saiyans rapidly increase in power as a fight progresses, so that particular statement is entirely applicable to this particular scenario. Summarily, you should lower Vegeta. He had confidence about 'becoming a Super Saiyan later', and how their battle powers were continuously rising, not of how powerful he had become; and no, no fan made gaps make it an absolute principal or rule that Vegeta has to be that close to Frieza.
If Vegeta was as powerful as you think he is, he could just go in and fight Frieza without the need of the others; and probably win all by himself. However, he needs the help of Gohan, especially his rage boost. In addition, Toriyama's interview says that Saiyans rapidly increase in power as a fight progresses, so that particular statement is entirely applicable to this particular scenario. Summarily, you should lower Vegeta. He had confidence about 'becoming a Super Saiyan later', and how their battle powers were continuously rising, not of how powerful he had become; and no, no fan made gaps make it an absolute principal or rule that Vegeta has to be that close to Frieza.
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Kulilin's 75k is from vjump aka a bad power levelh0kuten said:
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@h0kuten
Good point about Piccolo only sensing 3 huge powers... I never considered that. This should imply that Kuririn is way weaker than Gohan, right? But would not Piccolo consider a 75k a huge power?
I generally have Kuririn this high because Vegeta is couting with his power in order to defeat Freeza. And he is considering a hypothetical 2nd Form Freeza, since he knew Freeza could transform. In other words, Kuririn is somewhat relevant for a foe >> 530k.
I disagree with Vegeta. He should be pretty close to 500k, me thinks. He had more problems in his scluffle with Freeza, but Freeza wasn't exactly kicking his ass. Freeza transformed because of how powerful Vegeta was.
Good point about Piccolo only sensing 3 huge powers... I never considered that. This should imply that Kuririn is way weaker than Gohan, right? But would not Piccolo consider a 75k a huge power?
I generally have Kuririn this high because Vegeta is couting with his power in order to defeat Freeza. And he is considering a hypothetical 2nd Form Freeza, since he knew Freeza could transform. In other words, Kuririn is somewhat relevant for a foe >> 530k.
I disagree with Vegeta. He should be pretty close to 500k, me thinks. He had more problems in his scluffle with Freeza, but Freeza wasn't exactly kicking his ass. Freeza transformed because of how powerful Vegeta was.
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Actually Piccolo said that there was an outrageously large ki far away which he assumed was Freeza's and three other kis close by singling Freeza's ki out as being outrageous while the other three are just "huge". Krillin should still be fairly close to Gohan at this point and high enough where his power level is still relevant to 1st Form Freeza and Vegeta.
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If you pay attention to the artwork it's clear that Vegeta isn't in the same realm of power as 1rs Form Frieza is, and he cannot stand up to him on his own. His entire plan was to use the Dragon Balls and wear Frieza down until he could beat him on his own. Without them, he needs Gohan & Krillens help:
He doesn't put any emphasis on his own power achieving the victory, he puts emphasis on being able to win 'somehow'. Which excludes his battle power being great enough to go at Frieza on his own. Additionally, he brings up Gohans enraged power and how close he is to becoming a Super Saiyan, and how the three of them are constantly getting stronger.
Which is supported by this interview:
Gohan & Vegeta would continue to get stronger as they fought against 1rst Form Frieza and they might eventually be able to manage something.
Conclusively, the artwork proves it:
Frieza is barely flinching or showing any signs of effort while Vegeta's veins are popping out of his head and he is barely able to even hold his own. After the brief struggle, Frieza is impressed but he doesn't feel threatened. Whereas Vegeta is completely out of breath.
Also, Frieza didn't feel the need to transform because of how powerful Vegeta had become. He was asked to.
He doesn't put any emphasis on his own power achieving the victory, he puts emphasis on being able to win 'somehow'. Which excludes his battle power being great enough to go at Frieza on his own. Additionally, he brings up Gohans enraged power and how close he is to becoming a Super Saiyan, and how the three of them are constantly getting stronger.
Which is supported by this interview:
Gohan & Vegeta would continue to get stronger as they fought against 1rst Form Frieza and they might eventually be able to manage something.
Conclusively, the artwork proves it:
Also, Frieza didn't feel the need to transform because of how powerful Vegeta had become. He was asked to.
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@h0kuten
Of course Vegeta needs Kuririn's and Gohan's help, he is weaker than Freeza first form. And what's more, he knows Freeza can transform. But like I said, Vegeta should not be far weaker than Freeza. He is something confident in defeat a hypothetical 2nd form Freeza (who in Vegeta's mind should be around 675k, based on Zarbon's transformation boost).
And Vegeta considered Kuririn and Gohan to be relevant to a foe at ~675k (2nd form Freeza in Vegeta's mind). Kuririn and Gohan should be more relevant to Freeza here than they were to Recoome, as I don't think Kuririn, Gohan and Vegeta could take out Recoome.
Freeza 2nd form (Vegeta's mind) 675,000
Freeza (1st form) 530,000
Vegeta 500,000
Son Gohan 400,000
Kuririn 300,000
This should be the absolutely minimum for Kuririn and Gohan, I think, since they must be more relevant to 2nd form Freeza (Vegeta's mind) than they were to Recoome. The 75k really doesn't work IMO.
Of course Vegeta needs Kuririn's and Gohan's help, he is weaker than Freeza first form. And what's more, he knows Freeza can transform. But like I said, Vegeta should not be far weaker than Freeza. He is something confident in defeat a hypothetical 2nd form Freeza (who in Vegeta's mind should be around 675k, based on Zarbon's transformation boost).
And Vegeta considered Kuririn and Gohan to be relevant to a foe at ~675k (2nd form Freeza in Vegeta's mind). Kuririn and Gohan should be more relevant to Freeza here than they were to Recoome, as I don't think Kuririn, Gohan and Vegeta could take out Recoome.
Freeza 2nd form (Vegeta's mind) 675,000
Freeza (1st form) 530,000
Vegeta 500,000
Son Gohan 400,000
Kuririn 300,000
This should be the absolutely minimum for Kuririn and Gohan, I think, since they must be more relevant to 2nd form Freeza (Vegeta's mind) than they were to Recoome. The 75k really doesn't work IMO.
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I'll start off by saying there are far too many assumptions and estimations made in your response. It's not backed up by the artwork, statements or the story. That and you're putting 'rules' down in regards to gaps and making things up and treating them as fact, when they obviously aren't.
He doesn't put any emphasis on his own power achieving the victory, he puts emphasis on being able to win 'somehow'. Which excludes his battle power being great enough to go at Frieza on his own. Additionally, he brings up Gohans enraged power and how close he is to becoming a Super Saiyan, and how the three of them are constantly getting stronger.
He's putting his bet on what may or may not happen in the future not where they all currently stand.
Vegeta is relevant because he can resist Frieza and maybe turn into a Super Saiyan.
Krillen is relevant because now his power is rapidly increasing.
During the battle with the Ginyu Force, Vegeta never witnessed or believed in the above hypotheticals; hence why he put no faith in them.
This is just your general idea. Nobody has to follow it.
Vegeta doesn't expect the transformation to be that much.
He doesn't expect the transformation to be significant.
You completely made that up and tied two things together that have nothing to do with one another.
I'll just copy and paste what I said previously because it's obvious you didn't even read it.
He doesn't put any emphasis on his own power achieving the victory, he puts emphasis on being able to win 'somehow'. Which excludes his battle power being great enough to go at Frieza on his own. Additionally, he brings up Gohans enraged power and how close he is to becoming a Super Saiyan, and how the three of them are constantly getting stronger.
He's putting his bet on what may or may not happen in the future not where they all currently stand.
Gohan is relevant with his enraged power.
Vegeta is relevant because he can resist Frieza and maybe turn into a Super Saiyan.
Krillen is relevant because now his power is rapidly increasing.
During the battle with the Ginyu Force, Vegeta never witnessed or believed in the above hypotheticals; hence why he put no faith in them.
Vegeta 500,000
This is just your general idea. Nobody has to follow it.
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Did I ever say that? As far as I remember no. Obviously he did not expect the transformation to be that much, but he expected Freeza would become strong (equal happened to Zarbon). So, like I said, Vegeta is confident in defeat a foe >> 530,000. So he sure could not be as low as you are trying to say.
And how it changes what I said? Obviously he espects Freeza to get stronger, like did Zarbon.
Nope, I didn't. Zarbon went from 22/23k to ~28k, so Vegeta should expect Freeza to get a similar boost.
Zarbon - 23,000
~Monster - 28,000 (1.21x)
Freeza - 530,000
~Transformed (Vegeta's mind; same boost as Zarbon) ~ 650,000 (a bit weaker than I previous said, but meh)
Except he did. You pretty much said it in your post: "how the three of them are constantly getting stronger". Hell, there's a contradiction in his own line, since Vegeta pretty much stopped Freeza on his own.
And he did not bring up Gohan's enranged power, he only said "the young one has powers in him he can't even dream of". Later, when Gohan became angry, Vegeta was clearly surprised on how much power Gohan had when he lose his head.
Exept Freeza could just attack them in that same moment, so I doubt he would be only relying in the "future powers". Except you think Vegeta thinks Freeza could just wait until Gohan and Kuririn's power rise even further, at that moment they had enough power to face Freeza together Vegeta.
Except Gohan was not angry and Kuririn's power was increasing and Freeza could just attack both of them in that time. Kuririn would not be useful at a power level of 75k even if it's constantly increasing.
And I did not say that.
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After the scuffle between Vegeta and Freeza, even Gohan acknowledged that their powers might be enough to face Freeza.
Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P13.6
Context: after grappling with Vegeta for awhile, after Vegeta said they could win
Gohan: “It-it’s true…! If we 3 fight together, we might really be able to manage something…H-he really is absolutely incredible, but we’ve gotten better too…!”
Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P13.6
Context: after grappling with Vegeta for awhile, after Vegeta said they could win
Gohan: “It-it’s true…! If we 3 fight together, we might really be able to manage something…H-he really is absolutely incredible, but we’ve gotten better too…!”
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You sure did. When you increased Frieza's battle power to some 'specific degree'. You have no idea what you're talking about here, not to sound rude mate. You are also using Zarbon as a metaphor for something completely unrelated to him.
Next you are using '>>' in replacement for words.
Sigh...
Now you are tying two things together that are completely unrelated to one another.
You clearly paid absolutely little to no attention to my original post where Toriyama says 'Saiyans rapidly increase in strength against strong opponents and may eventually turn the tables'; this is a plain example for this scenario.
You are also missing the entire point in what I'm trying to say. Vegeta isn't banking on where he stands, or where any of them presently stand. He is banking on the chances of them managing something; which completely disregards their current battle power of being capable of besting Frieza. He elaborates on this by bringing up Gohans hidden power, their rapidly increasing strength and the possibility of himself becoming a Super Saiyan as the keys to defeating Frieza, not their current level of power -which according to you is what he's referring to, and it isn't.
The powers within Gohan is his enraged power. He won't be table to tap into this until the Cell Games. This is a irrefutable fact and is the reference for Vegeta's remark here.
Your fan made rules on gaps are incorrect.
At this point, I feel like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
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@h0kuten
Vegeta - Try! If you think you will beat me easily, you are sadly mistaken!!
Here Vegeta is talking about his current power. He is confident that he will not be done easily.
Vegeta - None of you seems to have realized... How these earthlings' battle strengths keep rising! The young one has powers in him he can't even dream of!
He only said that their battle powers are keeping rising because it's in fact what is happening. But that doesn't mean they have not strength enough to face Freeza as they are now. Is prespoterous to think that Vegeta was only relying in his "future powers", since Freeza was in front of them and could suddenly attack them.
After this, Vegeta was able to hold Freeza and though he was having more problems in his scuffle with him, Furiza was not exactly kicking his ass and the two were forced to retreat. Freeza even said that Vegeta was not entirely bluffing, meaning Bejita is able to stand against him. Vegeta's power should be around 500k.
And now I checked the manga, Piccolo only said that there's a astonishing Chi (Freeza) and there are other 3 huge Chis, what includes Kuririn too (Vegeta, Gohan and Kuririn). So no, Kuririn was not excluded from Piccolo's line.
Vegeta - Try! If you think you will beat me easily, you are sadly mistaken!!
Here Vegeta is talking about his current power. He is confident that he will not be done easily.
Vegeta - None of you seems to have realized... How these earthlings' battle strengths keep rising! The young one has powers in him he can't even dream of!
He only said that their battle powers are keeping rising because it's in fact what is happening. But that doesn't mean they have not strength enough to face Freeza as they are now. Is prespoterous to think that Vegeta was only relying in his "future powers", since Freeza was in front of them and could suddenly attack them.
After this, Vegeta was able to hold Freeza and though he was having more problems in his scuffle with him, Furiza was not exactly kicking his ass and the two were forced to retreat. Freeza even said that Vegeta was not entirely bluffing, meaning Bejita is able to stand against him. Vegeta's power should be around 500k.
And now I checked the manga, Piccolo only said that there's a astonishing Chi (Freeza) and there are other 3 huge Chis, what includes Kuririn too (Vegeta, Gohan and Kuririn). So no, Kuririn was not excluded from Piccolo's line.
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That was before Frieza powered up.
According to Toriyama the idea is not preposterous at all, his statement works with many scenarios in Dragonball.
Vegeta puts emphasis on what they will eventually be capable of and hypothetical scenarios where he becomes a Super Saiyan, not what they currently are.
Frieza was calm and composed whereas Vegeta was the complete opposite.
The feats disagree with you.
Insert fan made idea here (my personal canon).
Agreed.
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@h0kuten
That's nonsense. Freeza was going to stand around and wait for Kuririn to become strong enough to matter? That's ridiculous. Kuririn being 75k adds absolutely nothing to the battle with Freeza being over 500k. You are pretty much saying Kuririn is irrelevant to Freeza while Vegeta said the opposite.
During the fight with Ginyu, Vegeta said even Goku (whom he speculated to be at Ginyu's level) stood no chance against Freeza.
That's nonsense. Freeza was going to stand around and wait for Kuririn to become strong enough to matter? That's ridiculous. Kuririn being 75k adds absolutely nothing to the battle with Freeza being over 500k. You are pretty much saying Kuririn is irrelevant to Freeza while Vegeta said the opposite.
During the fight with Ginyu, Vegeta said even Goku (whom he speculated to be at Ginyu's level) stood no chance against Freeza.
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I fail to see how this acknowledges anything that I previously said.
Labeling the gaps as "making no sense" is a highly subjective assumption to begin with. Power differences are only one aspect of a battle. Other elements like mentality, skill, field advantage, senses, speed or defense, and so forth, can also greatly affect how evenly-matched a fight ends up.
You are completely disregarding the fact that I changed my stance on the matter.
I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here.
