- Joined
- Mar 6, 2016
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So yes, i've finally gathered it. Sit back and relax, take the popcorn and read this
Claim 1: Akira Toriyama states that Buu's power is unknown even to the own Buu, which means that all estimations regarding SSj Gotenks's power are wrong because Goku couldn't know Buu's power.
Counter: Let me ask you something: Is Gohan-Buu weaker than Vegetto? Is Vegetto-Buu as strong as Gohan-Buu was? If you responded yes to both, then Buu's power is knowable. What Akira Toriyama meant could be simply that Buu's power is vague and unpredictable, but not literally "unknown" in the literal meaning of the word. If that is really true, then Goku is weaker than Fat Buu by default because he couldn't possibly know Fat Buu was. He couldn't possibly know if Fat Buu was using only one percent of his true power against him or if Fat Buu was using one hundred percent. He couldn't possibly know if he and Vegeta teaming up could defeat Buu. Then Gotenks-Buu wasn't the strongest majin after he absorbed Gotenks, because he couldn't possibly know his own power. Saw how idiot is claiming that Buu's power is LITERALLY unknown?
Claim 2: Akira Toriyama states that everyone in the Buu Arc was as strong as they were in Super, which means that Goku > Gohan and Gotenks is true even in the Buu Arc.
What Toriyama stated was that they were at their maximum strength A FEW years after the Buu Arc, and that could simply mean that Goku surpassed Gohan and Gotenks in that time jump.
Claim 3: Super says that Goku was the undisputed number one after defeating Buu
Counter: As shown above, Goku only hit his peak a few years after the Buu Arc, so Gohan and Gotenks being surpassed and Goku becoming the actual number one is not surprising, since he became the number one AFTER defeating Buu, because none of us "Gotenkists and Gohanists" disagree with Super Goku < Gohan and Gotenks, we only agree with Gohan and Gotenks(in the middle of Buu Arc) > Goku
Claim 4: Goku believed that fighting Gotenks-Buu was worth a shot with the aid of Gohan. If he wasn't at least stronger than Super Buu was, thus stronger than Gotenks, why he would even try?
That's taking things out of context. Goku rushed in the fight without even thinking what he was doing, because of the excitement. For instance, in the japanese anime he says "Uuh..let's try Fusion then!!" later he realizes that they needed Fusion to beat Buu
Claim 5: The Daizenshuu states that Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta after the RoSaT
Counter: It doesn't even specify what form he surpassed them in, and you can't simply say that Daizenshuu was talking about Gotenks's strongest form. For instance, the Daizenshuu states that Goten has power comparable to Gohan's, but that doesn't mean that Goten is comparable to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, only Super Saiyan 1. Furthermore, the complete statement is that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others, which means that he surpassed Goku, Vegeta, Gohan(pre ritual), Piccolo, etc...either way, it means that Gotenks > Goku. Using this argument is as idiotic as shooting your own feet.
Claim 6: The Daizenshuu states that Kid Buu was the strongest in the universe
Counter: It doesn't have to include Gohan, nor Gotenks, because they were dead and they were revived basically when Kid was defeated. Mainly because if Kid Buu WAS the strongest in the universe, it would mean that Kid Buu is stronger than Gotenks-Buu and Gohan-Buu which is complete idiocy and impossible as well.
Claim 7: Super Buu is as strong as Fat Buu, only his body was better and his ki was now pure evil, instead of Fat Buu who had a innocent ki.
Counter: Actually not. The Daizenshuu 2 states that Grey Buu achieved a super-power up when he transformed into Super Buu. Also, this claim is entirely debunked after you see that it implies that Gotenks-Buu is only 2x Fat Buu(which is retarded), even though Gotenks-Buu stated that he was dimensions above the Buu "back then"(stated to be Fat Buu by Herms).
Claim 8: Goku states that Gotenks's power was gamble
Counter: In the japanese anime, Piccolo explains why it is a gamble: http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4383
Claim 9: Herms admitted that Gotenks being sensed from the Kaioshin Realm was a mistaken translation
Counter: Herms actually never said that, he only said that "perhaps the ki sensed is from Evil(Super) Buu, not Gotenks"
Claim 10: Goku is disappointed by Piccolo-Buu's power, who is at the very least as strong as Super Buu.
Counter: No, that is only in the FUNimation version of the anime.
Claim 11: When Goku stated that Gotenks(pre) would be stronger than him only as a SSj, he only said that to buy time so Buu wouldn't destroy everything
Counter: Goku actually never said that directly to Buu, and piccolo doesn't know that.
Claim 12: Beerus compared Enraged Vegeta to Goku, but didn't ever mention Gohan or Gotenks
As i said above, in Super it's clear as day that Goku surpassed Gohan. Toriyama states in an interview that everyone was at their best, but only a few years after the Buu Arc. Since Piccolo had a 200x+ boost in the gap between Trunks Saga and Android Arc, then i don't know why Goku wouldn't have the same boost.
Claim 13: Toriyama stated in an interview that he couldn't imagine Goku being stronger than he already was, so that's why he ended the series. Since Toriyama mentions Goku instead of Gohan, then Goku > Gohan > Gotenks.
The interview is subjective if you look at it in a main character pespective - Toriyama already stated that he didn't feel that Gohan was suited for the role of being the hero, so why not return Goku to the role of the main character? And the main character, Goku, needs to get stronger and stronger villains need to appear. Reading the full interview without any biased perspective, there are 2 possible meanings, and with all that is presented in the manga, i assume that is the second.
Claim 14: Goku said that Super Saiyan Gotenks might need to use the RoSaT against Fat Buu
No. That's taking the statement out of context. What Goku meant was that there might be a time afterward that they need it, which means in their future lives.
The japanese anime(no fillers) back up that interpretation.
Claim 15: Speed doesn't correlate with power, so Piccolo testing only the boys's speed doesn't mean that they had the power.
Eh..
Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), 7.4
Context: after Vegeta dodges Kui's attack
Kui: Wh…when did you…?!”
Vegeta: “When my battle power rises, it means that my speed raises too.”
The statement above proves that speed is correlated to power.
Claim 16: It's actually a mathematical impossibility to Gotenks to surpass Fat Buu, because even when Kaioshin(who was a dimension above Piccolo) fused with Kibito with the Potara Earrings, he wasn't even as strong as SSj2 Vegeta.
This claim is based in the fallacious argument that Kibito is comparable to Kaioshin - which is completely unsupported by guidebooks, the manga, or even the japanese anime. Piccolo's statement is a debatable statement that up until now was never solved and is still fuel to flame wars and debates. Also, Toriyama doesn't care about mathematical impossibilities.
Claim 17: Piccolo's statements about Base Gotenks post were proven wrong when Gotenks failed to even budge Super Buu.
Not really. It could mean that they misjudged Super Buu, and this is a reasonable conclusion, since both Gotenks and Piccolo had similar conclusions, independent of one or another, we can easily conclude that they misjudged Super Buu, not Gotenks.
Claim 18: Gotenks never transformed into a SSj2 - he actually skipped the transformation, which means that his SSj3 multiplier was reduced.
Gotenks is shown to have sparks in one panel. You could argue that it is because of SSj3, but saying that he never transformed into SSj2 is assumption, so again subjective.
Claim 19: When South Kaioshin Buu transformed into Kid Buu, his ki is not stated to lower - thus, Super Buu<Kid Buu.
It's stated that now that he transformed into Kid Buu, they might be able to manage something. Later, it is stated that Vegeta understimated Kid Buu, but ONLY Vegeta. Never Goku.
Claim 1: Akira Toriyama states that Buu's power is unknown even to the own Buu, which means that all estimations regarding SSj Gotenks's power are wrong because Goku couldn't know Buu's power.
Counter: Let me ask you something: Is Gohan-Buu weaker than Vegetto? Is Vegetto-Buu as strong as Gohan-Buu was? If you responded yes to both, then Buu's power is knowable. What Akira Toriyama meant could be simply that Buu's power is vague and unpredictable, but not literally "unknown" in the literal meaning of the word. If that is really true, then Goku is weaker than Fat Buu by default because he couldn't possibly know Fat Buu was. He couldn't possibly know if Fat Buu was using only one percent of his true power against him or if Fat Buu was using one hundred percent. He couldn't possibly know if he and Vegeta teaming up could defeat Buu. Then Gotenks-Buu wasn't the strongest majin after he absorbed Gotenks, because he couldn't possibly know his own power. Saw how idiot is claiming that Buu's power is LITERALLY unknown?
Claim 2: Akira Toriyama states that everyone in the Buu Arc was as strong as they were in Super, which means that Goku > Gohan and Gotenks is true even in the Buu Arc.
What Toriyama stated was that they were at their maximum strength A FEW years after the Buu Arc, and that could simply mean that Goku surpassed Gohan and Gotenks in that time jump.
Claim 3: Super says that Goku was the undisputed number one after defeating Buu
Counter: As shown above, Goku only hit his peak a few years after the Buu Arc, so Gohan and Gotenks being surpassed and Goku becoming the actual number one is not surprising, since he became the number one AFTER defeating Buu, because none of us "Gotenkists and Gohanists" disagree with Super Goku < Gohan and Gotenks, we only agree with Gohan and Gotenks(in the middle of Buu Arc) > Goku
Claim 4: Goku believed that fighting Gotenks-Buu was worth a shot with the aid of Gohan. If he wasn't at least stronger than Super Buu was, thus stronger than Gotenks, why he would even try?
That's taking things out of context. Goku rushed in the fight without even thinking what he was doing, because of the excitement. For instance, in the japanese anime he says "Uuh..let's try Fusion then!!" later he realizes that they needed Fusion to beat Buu
Claim 5: The Daizenshuu states that Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta after the RoSaT
Counter: It doesn't even specify what form he surpassed them in, and you can't simply say that Daizenshuu was talking about Gotenks's strongest form. For instance, the Daizenshuu states that Goten has power comparable to Gohan's, but that doesn't mean that Goten is comparable to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, only Super Saiyan 1. Furthermore, the complete statement is that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others, which means that he surpassed Goku, Vegeta, Gohan(pre ritual), Piccolo, etc...either way, it means that Gotenks > Goku. Using this argument is as idiotic as shooting your own feet.
Claim 6: The Daizenshuu states that Kid Buu was the strongest in the universe
Counter: It doesn't have to include Gohan, nor Gotenks, because they were dead and they were revived basically when Kid was defeated. Mainly because if Kid Buu WAS the strongest in the universe, it would mean that Kid Buu is stronger than Gotenks-Buu and Gohan-Buu which is complete idiocy and impossible as well.
Claim 7: Super Buu is as strong as Fat Buu, only his body was better and his ki was now pure evil, instead of Fat Buu who had a innocent ki.
Counter: Actually not. The Daizenshuu 2 states that Grey Buu achieved a super-power up when he transformed into Super Buu. Also, this claim is entirely debunked after you see that it implies that Gotenks-Buu is only 2x Fat Buu(which is retarded), even though Gotenks-Buu stated that he was dimensions above the Buu "back then"(stated to be Fat Buu by Herms).
Claim 8: Goku states that Gotenks's power was gamble
Counter: In the japanese anime, Piccolo explains why it is a gamble: http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4383
Claim 9: Herms admitted that Gotenks being sensed from the Kaioshin Realm was a mistaken translation
Counter: Herms actually never said that, he only said that "perhaps the ki sensed is from Evil(Super) Buu, not Gotenks"
Claim 10: Goku is disappointed by Piccolo-Buu's power, who is at the very least as strong as Super Buu.
Counter: No, that is only in the FUNimation version of the anime.
Claim 11: When Goku stated that Gotenks(pre) would be stronger than him only as a SSj, he only said that to buy time so Buu wouldn't destroy everything
Counter: Goku actually never said that directly to Buu, and piccolo doesn't know that.
Claim 12: Beerus compared Enraged Vegeta to Goku, but didn't ever mention Gohan or Gotenks
As i said above, in Super it's clear as day that Goku surpassed Gohan. Toriyama states in an interview that everyone was at their best, but only a few years after the Buu Arc. Since Piccolo had a 200x+ boost in the gap between Trunks Saga and Android Arc, then i don't know why Goku wouldn't have the same boost.
Claim 13: Toriyama stated in an interview that he couldn't imagine Goku being stronger than he already was, so that's why he ended the series. Since Toriyama mentions Goku instead of Gohan, then Goku > Gohan > Gotenks.
The interview is subjective if you look at it in a main character pespective - Toriyama already stated that he didn't feel that Gohan was suited for the role of being the hero, so why not return Goku to the role of the main character? And the main character, Goku, needs to get stronger and stronger villains need to appear. Reading the full interview without any biased perspective, there are 2 possible meanings, and with all that is presented in the manga, i assume that is the second.
Claim 14: Goku said that Super Saiyan Gotenks might need to use the RoSaT against Fat Buu
No. That's taking the statement out of context. What Goku meant was that there might be a time afterward that they need it, which means in their future lives.
The japanese anime(no fillers) back up that interpretation.
Claim 15: Speed doesn't correlate with power, so Piccolo testing only the boys's speed doesn't mean that they had the power.
Eh..
Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), 7.4
Context: after Vegeta dodges Kui's attack
Kui: Wh…when did you…?!”
Vegeta: “When my battle power rises, it means that my speed raises too.”
The statement above proves that speed is correlated to power.
Claim 16: It's actually a mathematical impossibility to Gotenks to surpass Fat Buu, because even when Kaioshin(who was a dimension above Piccolo) fused with Kibito with the Potara Earrings, he wasn't even as strong as SSj2 Vegeta.
This claim is based in the fallacious argument that Kibito is comparable to Kaioshin - which is completely unsupported by guidebooks, the manga, or even the japanese anime. Piccolo's statement is a debatable statement that up until now was never solved and is still fuel to flame wars and debates. Also, Toriyama doesn't care about mathematical impossibilities.
Claim 17: Piccolo's statements about Base Gotenks post were proven wrong when Gotenks failed to even budge Super Buu.
Not really. It could mean that they misjudged Super Buu, and this is a reasonable conclusion, since both Gotenks and Piccolo had similar conclusions, independent of one or another, we can easily conclude that they misjudged Super Buu, not Gotenks.
Claim 18: Gotenks never transformed into a SSj2 - he actually skipped the transformation, which means that his SSj3 multiplier was reduced.
Gotenks is shown to have sparks in one panel. You could argue that it is because of SSj3, but saying that he never transformed into SSj2 is assumption, so again subjective.
Claim 19: When South Kaioshin Buu transformed into Kid Buu, his ki is not stated to lower - thus, Super Buu<Kid Buu.
It's stated that now that he transformed into Kid Buu, they might be able to manage something. Later, it is stated that Vegeta understimated Kid Buu, but ONLY Vegeta. Never Goku.
