Does Gohan (Boo Saga) need to be angry to use his SSJ2 ?

[Ryuzaki]

It's a common explanation for those who doesn't consider the possibility that Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura. However, it's nothing more than a myth and a misconsception. I'm gonna explain why.

I)Gohan's SSJ2 at the Tenkaichi Budokai.

First, let's begin with the first and most obvious major flaw in the argument : the fact that Gohan was able to become SSJ2 without being angry. People argue that he was still angry after Videl's incident, but it's little more than an assumption without anything to back it up to begins with. If it was that a factor so much important for Gohan's transformation, AT would have at least showed a flashback of Videl's being beaten up by Spopovitch, something that would point it out. Here, absolutely nothing. And there is even elements that contradicted it :

* Gohan seemed to have completely forgotten about this incident, as he actually looked much more embarrassed than angry before fighting Kibito.

* His reaction upon seeing the one who injured his girlfriend right attacking him ? It looked way more like Don't you see that we're busy fighting than You hurt my girlfriend, son of a bitch !.

Actually, the argument in itself doesn't even make sense with the whole situation. Even Gohan's all-out rage, enraged enough to not listen to his father and risk to be disqualified by going to help his girlfriend, upon watching her getting violently beaten up, only triggered his SSJ. From this, why his tranquil fury, after the incident, while facing an opponent who doesn't have anything to do with it, would trigger his SSJ2 ? Assuming that it would, why his tranquil fury while facing the one who turned Piccolo and Krillin into stone woudln't, even going as far as mentionning that he's indeed angry on their second encounter ?

II)Gohan's SSJ2 is separated from his anger.

AT seems to make the difference between these two points :

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?â€￾
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… â€￾
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…â€￾

Here, Vegeta implied that Gohan can potentially beat them if he ever get enraged. Keep in mind that it's the very same person who was completely unimpressed by Teen Gohan's SSJ2 power, even going as far as being pissed off because he got rusty :

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?â€￾
Kibito: “…Wh-what tremendous power…I can’t believe he’s a being of the lower world!â€￾
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…â€￾
Kaioshin: “…No, even so this is magnificent energy, more so than I imagined…I wonder if I’ll be able to stop this power…â€￾
Goku: “…Stop it?â€￾

Then, there is that quote :

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6
Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

Goku only mentionned his anger against Cell. It's either he forgot that Gohan was angry at the Tenkaichi Budokai or he simply doesn't need that to be SSJ2 in Boo Saga.

Also, when Gohan mentionned that he's angry, just not like it was back then, as he remember Goku's advice, which is all about Cell Games :

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…â€￾

Conclusion = Gohan (Boo Saga) doesn't need to be angry to use his SSJ2.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

The second option makes more sense. Gohan SSjin2 and Enrage SSjin2 are two different power.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I think FNF Saga (anime) explains this wonderfully; Gohan is so rusty that he can only
go SSJ for a short period of time. I don't see why that couldn't be the case for his SSJ2
at 25th TB. It makes perfect sense. He could go SSJ2 for a while, which he did against
Kibito, so he couldn't repeat it against Dabura.

 

[VampireWicked]

The second option makes more sense. Gohan SSjin2 and Enrage SSjin2 are two different power.

That i agree with because anyone enraged is more powerful, though the increase varies.
Vegeta Battle Of The Gods for example.

But i also think Gohan was so out of practice from lack of training that his AscendedSaiyan state has gotten so much weaker that Vegeta/Goku's clam AscendedSaiyan state were greater than enraged AscendedSaiyan teen Gohan.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Fuck Gohan for overusing it.

 

[ahill1]

I'd not really say it's a misconception. There are reasons to believe Gohan was only a SSJ vs Dabura and in Boo's egg and if so, then he couldn't turn into SSJ2 freely anymore by whatever reason.

Frankly speaking, I think it'd make even more sense if Gohan couldn't turn into SSJ2 at will:

(image took from @Mikey)

Goku said he couldn't turn into SSJ at will firstly and needed a lot of practice. Gohan did slack off this seven years and probably didn't practice the transformation (SSJ2).

 

[Super Saiyan Overlord1007]

I think he still could transform without being angry like when he did so at the Budokai, he gave a goofy looking smile to his peers from school when noticed him in the ring so he couldn't have been that angry, but even then he went SSJ2. I think he needed to be mad to be that same beast he was against Cell when he initially transformed for the first time and that's what he was trying to do with the Majin Buu egg.

 

[Keedounan]

I'd not really say it's a misconception. There are reasons to believe Gohan was only a SSJ vs Dabura and in Boo's egg and if so, then he couldn't turn into SSJ2 freely anymore by whatever reason.

Frankly speaking, I think it'd make even more sense if Gohan couldn't turn into SSJ2 at will:

(image took from @Mikey)

Goku said he couldn't turn into SSJ at will firstly and needed a lot of practice. Gohan did slack off this seven years and probably didn't practice the transformation (SSJ2).

It'd make sense, if it wasn't for the fact that Gohan did turned into SSJ2 against Kibito without even looking remotely angry. If he was really angry, then the reason why he didn't turned into SSJ2 against Dabura, whom he had more legitimate reasons to be angry against remains a mystery.

At least, Toei tried to justify it by having Gohan forget about it. A pretty flimsy justification (how can you forget that your best friends lives were in danger?), but points for trying.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I'd not really say it's a misconception. There are reasons to believe Gohan was only a SSJ vs Dabura and in Boo's egg and if so, then he couldn't turn into SSJ2 freely anymore by whatever reason.

Frankly speaking, I think it'd make even more sense if Gohan couldn't turn into SSJ2 at will:

(image took from @Mikey)

Goku said he couldn't turn into SSJ at will firstly and needed a lot of practice. Gohan did slack off this seven years and probably didn't practice the transformation (SSJ2).

It'd make sense, if it wasn't for the fact that Gohan did turned into SSJ2 against Kibito without even looking remotely angry. If he was really angry, then the reason why he didn't turned into SSJ2 against Dabura, whom he had more legitimate reasons to be angry against remains a mystery.

At least, Toei tried to justify it by having Gohan forget about it. A pretty flimsy justification (how can you forget that your best friends lives were in danger?), but points for trying.

I think it was implied that Gohan wasn't giving his all against Dabura by Vegeta and Goku, moreover the focus of that story is about Majin Boo which pretty much why Gohan forgotten Piccolo and Kriilin.

 

[Zippy]

I don't think he does. If you follow the diaz then he definetely doesnt given according to it he used it on dabura (not saying i follow diaz just thought id put that out there).

 

[Keedounan]

I think it was implied that Gohan wasn't giving his all against Dabura by Vegeta and Goku

Considering how Vegeta and Goku talked about him slacking off and all, the message it sends to me is: "if Gohan was stronger, he could win" rather than "if Gohan took Dabura seriously, he could win". The problem is that Gohan was SSJ. Two choices:

* Like you suggested, he was deliberately holding back, which is nonsense considering the situation he's in and Goku's and Vegeta's whole dialogue.
* Or Gohan couldn't turn into SSJ2. But then, why he could do it in the Tenkaichi Budokai? And when you see Gohan's actions before the "fight" against Kibito, and how he reacted upon seeing Spopovitch (the one who has beaten up Videl), I think it's pretty clear that he wasn't angry at all.

moreover the focus of that story is about Majin Boo which pretty much why Gohan forgotten Piccolo and Kriilin.

I'm pretty sure that this isn't how memory works. For an out of universe explanation, considering that none of the characters mentionned them, perhaps Toriyama himself temporarily forgot about it? In either case, it still doesn't explain why Gohan would turn into SSJ2.

And once again, a debate on the Boo arc demonstrate why it's the most controversial saga in the manga.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I think it was implied that Gohan wasn't giving his all against Dabura by Vegeta and Goku

Considering how Vegeta and Goku talked about him slacking off and all, the message it sends to me is: "if Gohan was stronger, he could win" rather than "if Gohan took Dabura seriously, he could win". The problem is that Gohan was SSJ. Two choices:

* Like you suggested, he was deliberately holding back, which is nonsense considering the situation he's in and Goku's and Vegeta's whole dialogue.
* Or Gohan couldn't turn into SSJ2. But then, why he could do it in the Tenkaichi Budokai? And when you see Gohan's actions before the "fight" against Kibito, and how he reacted upon seeing Spopovitch (the one who has beaten up Videl), I think it's pretty clear that he wasn't angry at all.

moreover the focus of that story is about Majin Boo which pretty much why Gohan forgotten Piccolo and Kriilin.

I'm pretty sure that this isn't how memory works. For an out of universe explanation, considering that none of the characters mentionned them, perhaps Toriyama himself temporarily forgot about it? In either case, it still doesn't explain why Gohan would turn into SSJ2.

And once again, a debate on the Boo arc demonstrate why it's the most controversial saga in the manga.

I just checked the manga and it seems that was just a filler then.

 

[ahill1]

It'd make sense, if it wasn't for the fact that Gohan did turned into SSJ2 against Kibito without even looking remotely angry. If he was really angry, then the reason why he didn't turned into SSJ2 against Dabura, whom he had more legitimate reasons to be angry against remains a mystery.

Aye, I know Gohan was a SSJ2 at the Budokai. I said it would make more sense that way, not saying it is that way. That part of the Boo saga is pretty much a mess and we can only make theories to try to explain it.

At least, Toei tried to justify it by having Gohan forget about it. A pretty flimsy justification (how can you forget that your best friends lives were in danger?), but points for trying.

Yeah, Goku also said to Gohan be angry like he was against Cell, rather than referring to the Budokai.

But what I'm saying is that thinking Gohan needs angry to become a SSJ2 isn't really a misconception. Saying it is, is like saying he was factually a SSJ2 vs Dabura, which isn't right. People have the right to believe Gohan cannot turn into it at will, considering he didn't do it against Dabura, which would give Gohan an easy win.

If Gohan was merely a SSJ vs Dabura, then the story might have taken a different route concerning Gohan's ability to go SSJ2, compared to the Budokai.

 

[Tapion]

If Gohan was a SSjin2 against the Dabura, half of the plotholes we see on Boo Saga would go poof.

 

[Keedounan]

It'd make sense, if it wasn't for the fact that Gohan did turned into SSJ2 against Kibito without even looking remotely angry. If he was really angry, then the reason why he didn't turned into SSJ2 against Dabura, whom he had more legitimate reasons to be angry against remains a mystery.

Aye, I know Gohan was a SSJ2 at the Budokai. I said it would make more sense that way, not saying it is that way. That part of the Boo saga is pretty much a mess and we can only make theories to try to explain it.

Indeed.

But what I'm saying is that thinking Gohan needs angry to become a SSJ2 isn't really a misconception. Saying it is, is like saying he was factually a SSJ2 vs Dabura, which isn't right.

Not really. I know that Gohan was SSJ. But what I'm saying is that stating that the argument of anger against the SSJ2 isn't valid, yet it's a common one, which is why I called it a misconception. In short, I'm saying that use this argument are right (about Gohan being SSJ), but for the wrong reason.

People have the right to believe Gohan cannot turn into it at will

They do. But then, they have to explain why Gohan was mysteriously able to do just that in the Tenkaichi Budokai. And to make sense with it, you need a very, very credible theory, kind of like the argument of Gohan being rusty earlier.

An out-of-universe explanation is that Toriyama forgot about it, cue the bad writing. But then, we have no evidence about that.

If Gohan was merely a SSJ vs Dabura, then the story might have taken a different route concerning Gohan's ability to go SSJ2, compared to the Budokai.

You mean, a bit like a retcon? Maybe.

If Gohan was a SSjin2 against the Dabura, half of the plotholes we see on Boo Saga would go poof.

Half? Considering how many there is...no, not even close.

 

[ahill1]

Not really. I know that Gohan was SSJ. But what I'm saying is that stating that the argument of anger against the SSJ2 isn't valid, yet it's a common one, which is why I called it a misconception. In short, I'm saying that use this argument are right (about Gohan being SSJ), but for the wrong reason.

You've said that Gohan needing angry to become a SSJ2 is a common explanation, but also said it's a common misconception or a myth, which, again, is not. Like you said, Gohan was a SSJ vs Dabura and couldn't turn into SSJ2. At Boo's egg, in spite of him saying he's getting angry, he still apparently couldn't turn into one, showing he couldn't do it (SSJ2) at will post Budokai because... whatever reason.

Like I said, the story isn't clear on this. Gohan could apparently become a SSJ2 at will in the Budokai, but couldn't do the same vs Dabura or at Boo's egg, so either option is valid.

They do. But then, they have to explain why Gohan was mysteriously able to do just that in the Tenkaichi Budokai. And to make sense with it, you need a very, very credible theory, kind of like the argument of Gohan being rusty earlier.

Eh, they can try to explain it, but that's not my main point. But ok, the same way those other people have to explain why he couldn't turn into a SSJ2 vs Dabura or at Boo's egg. It goes both ways.

You mean, a bit like a retcon? Maybe.

Maybe. But if you see Gohan merely as a SSJ post Budokai, then AT took a different route concerning Gohan's ability to turn into one (whereas he could do it at will and after it could no longer do it), hence why believing one over the other isn't a misconception.

It doesn't matter what route you go, you still have to explain some things. The "Gohan does not need anger to become a SSJ2" is as valid as the "Gohan does need anger to become a SSJ2", the same way the SSJ2 Gohan believers are as valid as the SSJ1 Gohan believers.

 

[Keedounan]

Not really. I know that Gohan was SSJ. But what I'm saying is that stating that the argument of anger against the SSJ2 isn't valid, yet it's a common one, which is why I called it a misconception. In short, I'm saying that use this argument are right (about Gohan being SSJ), but for the wrong reason.

You've said that Gohan needing angry to become a SSJ2 is a common explanation, but also said it's a common misconception or a myth, which, again, is not. Like you said, Gohan was a SSJ vs Dabura and couldn't turn into SSJ2. At Boo's egg, in spite of him saying he's getting angry, he still apparently couldn't turn into one, showing he couldn't do it (SSJ2) at will post Budokai because... whatever reason.

Like I said, the story isn't clear on this. Gohan could apparently become a SSJ2 at will in the Budokai, but couldn't do the same vs Dabura or at Boo's egg, so either option is valid.

They do. But then, they have to explain why Gohan was mysteriously able to do just that in the Tenkaichi Budokai. And to make sense with it, you need a very, very credible theory, kind of like the argument of Gohan being rusty earlier.

Eh, they can try to explain it, but that's not my main point. But ok, the same way those other people have to explain why he couldn't turn into a SSJ2 vs Dabura or at Boo's egg. It goes both ways.

You mean, a bit like a retcon? Maybe.

Maybe. But if you see Gohan merely as a SSJ post Budokai, then AT took a different route concerning Gohan's ability to turn into one (whereas he could do it at will and after it could no longer do it), hence why believing one over the other isn't a misconception.

It doesn't matter what route you go, you still have to explain some things. The "Gohan does not need anger to become a SSJ2" is as valid as the "Gohan does need anger to become a SSJ2", the same way the SSJ2 Gohan believers are as valid as the SSJ1 Gohan believers.

I get your yoint. One thing that is sure is that it wasn't handled very well.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

The author of Breakthrough The Limit also gave a good explanation in his fanfic;
Gohan turning SSJ2 in battle is more tricky than doing it when he has the luxury
to just stand there and focus.

 

[ChulpaBatman]

I honestly dont think for 7 years Gohan transformed into an SSJ 2. He didnt train for that long and only started training for like 2 weeks with Goten. So I think Gohan had to have some sort of rage to push him to unleashing SSJ 2. The issue here is that at the 25 WMT Gohan turned Super Saiyan 2 rather easily. Unless we say he was still angry over Videl being beat down which is plausible as it literally happened maybe 10 minutes before his fight.

The Boo arc is full of poor writing and Its probably due to Toriyama not having his heart in it and his editors demanding a time frame. That is why we will always have arguments about was Gohan an SSJ 2 Vs Dabura? Why was Kaioshin shocked by Base Vegetas power when he witnessed SSJ 2 Gohan?How strong is Dabura? Which Version of Cell was Goku comparing him too?

Its all really anyone's guess and what makes you feel better at night before you look at some DBZ hentai.

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

The second option makes more sense. Gohan SSjin2 and Enrage SSjin2 are two different power.

I agree with this, as Saiyan rage was canonized (again) in the black arc.