El Manga Legendario's take on Mecha Freeza and future Trunks

[ahill1]

I found an interesting tidbit of evidence regarding El Manga Legendario's take on how Mecha Freeza and Trunks' strength scales compared to other characters.

Relevant text in Spanish : "Con su cuerpo convertido en una máquina, su fuerza de combate aumento considerablemente. Sin embargo, no logro superar el nivel de supersaiyano y fue derrotado por trunks."


Translation : With his body changed to a machine, his strength has considerably increased. However, he still didn't manage to surpass the level of the Super Saiyajin and was done in by Trunks

Relevant text in Spanish : "Acaba con el rey Cold sin que a este le de tiemp para atacar. Su fuerza era comparable a la de Goku."

Translation : [Trunks] finished king Cold without this latter having even the time to attack. His strength was comparable to that of Goku's

Thoughts? It seems to be going down the route Mecha Freeza was no match for Trunks but that he hasn't reached the level Goku had on Namek either.

 

[Pyro]

The bit I'm curious about is Goku and Trunks being comparable. It doesn't give any specification for which period of time Goku is from. When he comes back from Yardrat or from Namek?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

As Pyro said, it's all vague. Mecha Freeza surpassing the level of the Super Saiyan is true, because nobody managed to surpass SSJ tier in general and require the cast breaking through the Super Saiyan wall until #17 and #18. As for Trunks being comparable to Goku, it gives no indication if it's referring to Namek or Yardrat Goku, not to mention "comparable" would still mean Trunks could be superior if referring to Namek Galu and simply be in the same tier.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Good find Ahill. But I don’t think there’s much room for doubt about Trunks’ power when we don’t have any reason to assume Goku got stronger while in Yardrat.

 

[Pyro]

We'll see about that. Good ol' Mango Legendareth might have an opinion on that.

 

[ahill1]

It doesn't specify a Goku, but it also says Freeza hasn't surpassed "the SSJ", using SSJ as a general, broad term, so it seems to going off the idea Freeza has just not reached a SSJ's level, no matter whether it's Goku or Trunks, right? But still, I think you could still go with Trunks being considerably above Namek Goku and Freeza as < that Goku.

 

[SSJ2]

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It doesn't specify a Goku, but it also says Freeza hasn't surpassed "the SSJ", using SSJ as a general, broad term, so it seems to going off the idea Freeza has just not reached a SSJ's level, no matter whether it's Goku or Trunks, right?

Not surpassed =/= Not reached. It refers to the SSJ level rather than an individual Super Saiyan, something that no character truly surpassed until #18, so I don't see how it tells us anything we didn't already know.

 

[SSJ2]

How can Freeza not have surpassed Namek Goku? They were already very close rivals, and that guidebook claims that Freeza's power considerably increased. That doesn't add up.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah, it did sound pretty odd for Freeza to be rivaling Namek Goku and not surpass him after. Though outside of the final hand to hand battle it’s pretty tough to tell who’s stronger.

I’ll go with CC’s explanation here. While I think the Pre Rosat SSJs barely differ to each other in terms of power, Freeza’s unsureness of whether or not he can win alone sounds like he’s still on Goku’s level.

 

[ahill1]

It doesn't specify a Goku, but it also says Freeza hasn't surpassed "the SSJ", using SSJ as a general, broad term, so it seems to going off the idea Freeza has just not reached a SSJ's level, no matter whether it's Goku or Trunks, right?

Not surpassed =/= Not reached. It refers to the SSJ level rather than an individual Super Saiyan, something that no character truly surpassed until #18, so I don't see how it tells us anything we didn't already know.

The only SSJs we were aware at the time were Goku and Trunks, so by referring to the SSJ level in general makes it seem even Goku's Namek threshold hasn't been overcome by Freeza. Going by the EML, that is. Not saying I agree.

The SSJ not being surpassed referenced 3 years later is a different story. We know that there were characters bearing power surpassing the first SSJs shown, so the SSJ being surpassed in question there seems to be referring mostly to the power a SSJ gives the user, that is, going beyond the SSJ's 50x multiplier. Vegeta wanted to go beyond the SSJ, however that doesn't mean the first bearers of the SSJ's power weren't surpassed by then... it simply means Vegeta is wishing to expand his power beyond the 50x multiplier bestowed by the SSJ, likely because he reached a temporary wall there and needed an extra state to face those foes. With Freeza we know the "not managed to surpass a SSJ" can't gain this connotation as he isn't even a Saiyajin. There it's a direct comparison to the SSJs's shown power.

 

[SSJ2]

The entire El Mango Legendario has been invalidated by this idiotic entry. These buffoons aren’t qualified to write a guidebook about this series.

 

[Pyro]

I wonder what it says about Piccolo in all this, pre-Kami.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The only SSJs we were aware at the time were Goku and Trunks, so by referring to the SSJ level in general makes it seem even Goku's Namek threshold hasn't been overcome by Freeza. Going by the EML, that is. Not saying I agree.

What things were at the time is irrelevant when this is a guide covering the whole manga.

The SSJ not being surpassed referenced 3 years later is a different story. We know that there were characters bearing power surpassing the first SSJs shown, so the SSJ being surpassed in question there seems to be referring mostly to the power a SSJ gives the user, that is, going beyond the SSJ's 50x multiplier. Vegeta wanted to go beyond the SSJ, however that doesn't mean the first bearers of the SSJ's power weren't surpassed by then... it simply means Vegeta is wishing to expand his power beyond the 50x multiplier bestowed by the SSJ, likely because he reached a temporary wall there and needed an extra state to face those foes.

I agree to that, but that's not what the guide is saying. Regardless of which characters reached or surpassed SSJs, the Super Saiyan level is treat in the series as a dimension of power that someone can't outright surpass until #17 and #18 with the reverence characters place in the Super Saiyans.

With Freeza we know the "not managed to surpass a SSJ" can't gain this connotation as he isn't even a Saiyajin. There it's a direct comparison to the SSJs's shown power.

Not surpassing the SSJ level =/= Not surpassing an individual SSJ. If we go by your first point, him surpassing Namek Goku and still being below Trunks and Yardrat Goku still fits with the entry when that wouldn't count as surpassing the Super Saiyan level.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

This just further prove that Freeza's BP was 120 million.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Fearless reminds me of a good question here. How strong is Freeza supposed to be compared to SSJ Goku? I mean he's not sure of how he'd fare against Goku, so him being a rival to Namek Goku could be a good placement for him.

 

[ahill1]

What things were at the time is irrelevant when this is a guide covering the whole manga.

Still, it wouldn't matter as pretty much all the SSJs past Namek Goku are stronger than Namek Goku and Freeza.

I agree to that, but that's not what the guide is saying. Regardless of which characters reached or surpassed SSJs, the Super Saiyan level is treat in the series as a dimension of power that someone can't outright surpass until #17 and #18 with the reverence characters place in the Super Saiyans.

When Vegeta complains about how the SSJs shouldn't be done in by the androids as it's supposed to be the strongest warrior, he's quite evidently referencing only his SSJ as the idea of future Trunks SSJ having his SSJ power outclassed by the androids was presented to him 3 years ago and he said he's the only one prepared to take on those foes with Trunks staying besides him. It seems he considers himself the only "true SSJ warrior" hence using it in an apparent general way, so to speak.

When he babbles on surpassing it which Goku catches on, it's referring to going beyond the power the transformation provides. For instance, when Vegeta turns into one against Semi Cell and is said by #16 to surpass his previous power nobody treats that huge advancement as "surpassing the SSJ" and rather this notion only sprouts when he begins his grade 2 transformation, meaning there can be a great variety of SSJs power without it being labeled "surpassing the SSJ"... so I fail to see how that has any saying on that entry.

Not surpassing the SSJ level =/= Not surpassing an individual SSJ. If we go by your first point, him surpassing Namek Goku and still being below Trunks and Yardrat Goku still fits with the entry when that wouldn't count as surpassing the Super Saiyan level.

In that case, they'd likely specify his upgrades as being no match for the new SSJs, instead of referring to only the form itself.