Finally watched the Evangelion Series

Warmmedown

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I did it mama. After 6+ years, I am done. Now I just have to watch End of Evangelion. After a whole 24 hours break, I'm not sure I want to be weirded out again though.

I have no idea what happened for 25% to 75% of the plot. The character development was quite good, but not better than a lot of more contemporary anime. I can see how, even today, it has the potential to be life-changing for anybody who shares some of Shinji, Asuka (or even Misato's) thoughts or life experiences. It's one of a small list of anime that shows war from soldiers' perspectives, so it has that going for it too. For me, it definitely rekindled some existential thoughts and self-reflection in the last few episodes, which is healthy once in a while.
 

Captain Cadaver

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Warmmeup said:
I have no idea what happened for 25% to 75% of the plot.
It can be difficult to grasp on the first time, but becomes pretty easy to follow the second time around when you're able to keep track of most of the character history and plot threads, especially after End of Evangelion helps make things a lot clearer.

The character development was quite good, but not better than a lot of more contemporary anime.
Such as?

Also, a lot of the character development outside of Shinji, Asuka and Misato's comes to fruition through the events of EoE, particularly for Rei and Gendo. It also helps make Kaji's character whole as well by offering insight into why he had such a calm world view all along.
 

Warmmedown

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I'd say Space Brothers, Welcome to the NHK! and Gintama easily have better character development. Space Brothers is pretty much focused on it and in Gintama's case the fact you get to see may of the characters in a diverse array of situations means the characters are more fleshed out. The characters in NGE are quite one-dimensional, in that they all have one broad, defining problem in their history which is supposed to explain their behaviour and thinking. Shinji has abandonment by his father, Asuka has her mother not noticing her and hanging herself, Misato again has a void left by her father not being around and then dying on her. That said, it's not really fair to compare NGE to much longer series. However, even some characters in Naruto had about as detailed and realistic development as Shinji, in quite a short amount of episodes (such as Gaara).

Once I get through EoE and the movie remakes, I do plan on rewatching the series quite soon, which I've never thought about any other series.
 

Captain Cadaver

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Warmmeup said:
I'd say Space Brothers, Welcome to the NHK! and Gintama easily have better character development. Space Brothers is pretty much focused on it and in Gintama's case the fact you get to see may of the characters in a diverse array of situations means the characters are more fleshed out.
Welcome to the NHK indeed has good character development, though I wouldn't say the overall character writing is superior to Eva. Aside from Satou and Misaki, the focus on the characters isn't as great (save for Yamazaki) and a bit too much time is spent with the characters going in circles.

Gintama I highly disagree with, however. A vast amount of time is wasted with the characters being treat as having one defining trait, many of which are highly overdone as running gags, to the point it's hard to care about them when the plot actually gets serious.

The characters in NGE are quite one-dimensional, in that they all have one broad, defining problem in their history which is supposed to explain their behaviour and thinking. Shinji has abandonment by his father, Asuka has her mother not noticing her and hanging herself, Misato again has a void left by her father not being around and then dying on her.
That would only make them one-dimensional if that was the only trait that defined their character, but that's far from the case.

Shinji's abandonment issues do play a role in his other traits, such as his desire to only quit if someone tells him to, but he also has many more qualities to his character such as his sexual urges and him rejecting the non-escapist route in a manner far better suited than most other series that attempted such.
Asuka's mother is her main driving force that most of her actions stem from, but her entire character can't just be summed up as "notice me". Some of her other traits include generally doing things on a whim such as kissing Shinji or generally struggling to understand those different to her, such as her outburst to Rei during the elevator scene.
Misato is far more than just someone driven by daddy issues. Yes, it is a major reason for her relationship with Kaji and being a poor foster parent for Shinji. This is excusable, however, as she later realises this, even confiding in Kaji that she subconsciously may just be using him and his death leads her to take a more dedicated approach to raising Shinji properly, thereby being one of the few situations where a character death genuinely leads to another's development. Her sexual nature is also a major part of her character, with her overuse of it being the result of her sympathetic ineptness and finding it the only way she can help others, such as her advances on Shinji in one of the later episodes. I would also say it's a stretch to say her love for alcohol, her pet penguin and hatred of paperwork are purely due to daddy issues.

That said, it's not really fair to compare NGE to much longer series.
Not when most long series have character development ending at a certain point and having a lot of unnecessary dead time leading up to it.

However, even some characters in Naruto had about as detailed and realistic development as Shinji, in quite a short amount of episodes (such as Gaara).
Gaara's development ended after the Chunin Exams, after which he became a fairly minor character with no real growth beyond his political rank. I wouldn't call someone going from psychotic killer to chilled out after a talk no jutsu anywhere near as realistic as someone struggling with a sense of identity and the choice between an idealised world or the true reality before making the strong choice of rejecting the fantasy.
Warmmeup said:
Once I get through EoE and the movie remakes, I do plan on rewatching the series quite soon, which I've never thought about any other series.
Don't bother with the Rebuild films. They make the characters completely one-dimensional, include the worthless character of the glasses girl and betray most of the anti-escpaist messages of the original by overfilling the movies with mindless action and harem cliches.
 

sei'taer

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Eva is one of those series I feel everyone should watch, but not everyone is going to enjoy. It definitely takes watching End of Evangelion and probably watching the show more than once to truly grasp. A lot is going on beneath the surface of that series that's only explained later on, and on rewatch with that foreknowledge makes character actions work better.
 

Warmmedown

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Gintama characters do have repetitve traits and mannerisms, however just like a real person they all have at least a few different ones and the extent to which these traits overtly display themselves does vary depending on the situation, which is again similar to a real person. For example, Gintoki's apathy, drive to help others, sarcasm, expression of disdain for other characters (mostly Hijikata, but other characters too) and philosophising all are manifested at varying intensities throughout the series. The same can be said for Hijikata's strictness, his awkwardness and his vices (which are mostly used only for comedic effect tbf, yes) and his rocky relationships with Sougo and Gintoki. Sougo, Kondo, Hasegawa, Kagura and Shinpachi all have a similar variety of traits.
Yes, it is a comedy, so some characters do regularly get relegated to their more comedic and idiotic version of themselves, but to be honest in life it's not uncommon for people to just wade through without expressing different sides of themselves for many days at a time, but occasionally get a chance to step up and show a different side of themselves (whether it be by tackling a challenge at work, handling an emergency or being confronted with a friend who needs to be uplifted). I do think some characters get reduced to being a walking gag too often, such as Katsura and Hasegawa, but even those two get episodes or arcs where they get to show depth and complexity of character; we see that Hasegawa isn't just a lazy bum, but still is a caring man who is capable of getting a good job again, but doesn't because his care for others ends up getting him back into trouble again or makes him sacrifice his own well-being for others (which is how he got homeless in the first place) and we see that Katsura is capable of being a strong leader (although don't get me wrong, I admit Katsura is definitely too stupid most of the time for him to realisitcally be a the solo leader of a militant group, whereas characters like Kondo/Hijikata/Sougo make more sense because they are more balanced and their strengths cover up each other's weaknesses).
Sadly, there are definitely some characters who despite having quite strong initial development get their character assassinated soon after introduction - Sarutobi comes to mind, since almost all her screen time is her being an over the top stalker and pervert, Kyuubei goes from being shown to have genuine confusion and struggle with her gender identity, familial responsibilities and relationship with Otae to just being obsessed with penises and arguably Tsukuyo, although I actually think in her case it's excusable because she doesn't get much screen time any more so we have no time to be exposed to the different sides of her character. On the other hand you also have some single arc characters who get excellent development, such as Itou, whose development made the events leading up to his death for me hands-down the saddest death in anime, even though he was only shown for a few episodes.

As for Gaara, I was referring to the reasons given for his initial behaviour, rather than his change into a calm leader, which probably was too too drastic (unless it happened over the time-skip, but I don't remember). Him becoming Naruto's ally so quickly doesn't come across as unrealistic, seeing as Gaara's love for killing (as a ninja, a desire to kill isn't indicative of having completely lost the ability to connect with others (especially when someone is still in the malleable psychological stage of adolescence), since it literally is a normal part of the job) had similar origins to some of Naruto's problems and coming across someone so similar to himself, who was able to understand him and was almost like another pea in a pod, could easily cause a friendship to start.

With regards to NGE characters, if the characters' traits aren't linked to their shown past, that doesn't make me rate the character development any higher. It just means they all have traits that don't have any clear link to their past and are never explained in any way. Asuka is very forward with Shinji and either this is due to things that are never explored - which would be a lack of character development - or down to her past with her mother, which again just relegates her to only having one defining aspect of her past. When you were 14 were all your actions dependent on one thing in your past? Probably not. To me, when it comes to using a character's past to flesh them out, the strongest development would include at least on of two things which give the characters a more realistic variety of psychological influences, both of which I feel NGE lacks: the first is showing multiple events or relationships in their past to explain their thoughts/behaviour and the second is giving more depth to these events or relationships. The first is probably pretty self-explanatory, whereas the second I'll give an example for. If a character has a defining life experience of being abused/neglected by their parent (which Shinji is an example of), instead of vaguely showing that they were generally abused and now have a multitude of issues, better development would be to show or somehow allude to individual cases of abuse to explain individual present-day behaviours. E.g: The character doesn't argue back because arguing back always led to being punished or abandoned, the character doesn't socialise openly because they had limited human exposure or conversation at a young age due to being neglected, they don't get on with others because they can't relate due to having vastly different upbringings, they can't make choices due to never being allowed autonomy in the past, if they have shallow affect it might be shown to be due to their emotional system being overwhelmed in the past. NGE doesn't have variety or depth to the characters' past events, while some others series do have one or the other. All this isn't to say NGE doesn't have good development, but it still leaves a fair bit to be desired.

"Not when most long series have character development ending at a certain point and having a lot of unnecessary dead time leading up to it."
I'm curious as to what you mean here by "dead time".
 

Warmmedown

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sei'taer said:
Eva is one of those series I feel everyone should watch, but not everyone is going to enjoy. It definitely takes watching End of Evangelion and probably watching the show more than once to truly grasp. A lot is going on beneath the surface of that series that's only explained later on, and on rewatch with that foreknowledge makes character actions work better.

I agree that everyone should watch Eva at some stage. As an anime definitely brings some unique combination of elements to the table. I wonder how many people watch Eva and dislike it for the characters (I see a lot of complaints about Shinji) and ambiguity and then come back after new experiences and change their mind.
 

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