Freeza > Kibito > Base Gohan. Agreed?

[Animelover5487]

Gohan didn't think he could beat Kibito without going Super Saiyan:


Chapter: 443 (DBZ 249), P9.1-3
Context: as Gohan prepares to fight Kibito
Gohan: “Man, this is a predicament. Bulma told me that if people found out my true power, there'd be a big commotion and it'd become hard for me to go to school anywhere. That's why I disguised myself, but...He doesn’t seem like an opponent that I can beat while suitably covering up [my true power].”


Kibito wasn't included in the statement about the Kaioshins being capable of one shooting Freeza. If Kibito was stronger than Freeza wouldn't that strengthen the claim?

This could likely support Base Saiyans being weaker than Freeza.

 

[SSJ2]

No. Gohan has no way to grasp Kibito's power.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Gohan said Kibito "seemed" to be someone he couldn't beat easily despite not being able to sense him and having not seen him fight, and this was a guy associated with someone Piccolo stepped down against. Gohan was going purely off hype, and the idea of them being close is debunked pretty heavily by Gohan and Goku holding the Z-Sword in base without tremendous effort whereas Kibito wasn't able to budge it.

Even if taking the Daizenshuu statement on Kibito being close to Gohan, it's illogical to cherry-pick that without also taking into account it also stating Shin is scared of Yakon or Base Trunks fighting evenly with #18 (something with far more validity to the manga), so you either concede to the idea that Base Gohan ~ Kibito > Base Trunks ~ #18 >> Freeza or you have nothing.

 

[Animelover5487]

Gohan said Kibito "seemed" to be someone he couldn't beat easily despite not being able to sense him and having not seen him fight, and this was a guy associated with someone Piccolo stepped down against. Gohan was going purely off hype, and the idea of them being close is debunked pretty heavily by Gohan and Goku holding the Z-Sword in base without tremendous effort whereas Kibito wasn't able to budge it.

Even if taking the Daizenshuu statement on Kibito being close to Gohan, it's illogical to cherry-pick that without also taking into account it also stating Shin is scared of Yakon or Base Trunks fighting evenly with #18 (something with far more validity to the manga), so you either concede to the idea that Base Gohan ~ Kibito > Base Trunks ~ #18 >> Freeza or you have nothing.

I forgot all about Kibito being unable to budge the Z-Sword. I was considering putting Shin considerably ahead of Piccolo on my rough drafted updated power level list but now that I got refresher on the various implications of Shin being a rival to the Base Saiyans at best, the notion of Piccolo stepping down out of respect seems most likely.

Damn, Kibito and Shin are weaksauce no wonder their fusion was still below SSJ2 tier.

 

[GSM123]

Kibito > Gohan is a sure thing for me. Regardless of how he could've sensed Kibito's power, he did sacrifice his secret about being the golden warrior and transformed into a SSJ in front of the entire crowd to fight Kibito. And the Daizenshuu 7 entry on Kibito potentially giving Gohan a good fight certainly help.

Freeza > Kibito is something that I never understood though, and I'm on the Freeza > Base Saiyans boat. Why would Kaioshin bring Kibito up? He's not a Kaioshin. His kind didn't get annihilated like the Kaioshins were. Kaioshin was specifically talking about how the other Kaioshins got destroyed by Boo, Kibito has no business in this.

so you either concede to the idea that Base Gohan ~ Kibito > Base Trunks ~ #18 >> Freeza or you have nothing.

Why wouldn't anyone? Kibito doesn't need to be a SSjin 3 to be strong :mikey

And on your point over how the Daizenshuu implies Trunks ~ 18, what about the Daizenshuu also implying Gohan and Dabra had a even fight? Does that mean Dabra wasn't holding back either?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

And on your point over how the Daizenshuu implies Trunks ~ 18, what about the Daizenshuu also implying Gohan and Dabra had a even fight? Does that mean Dabra wasn't holding back either?

You could look at it like that, though context is important and it can be seen as an even fight in the same way Base Goku VS Freeza or Goku VS Cell were seemingly even fights. With Dabura, there's at least some reason to argue he would be holding back such as calling Gohan trash or how he wanted to toy with guys he expected to be weaker than Pui Pui, whereas #18's character motivations combined with her general performance would go heavily against the idea of her doing the same.

 

[SSJ2]

Kibito > Gohan is a sure thing for me. Regardless of how he could've sensed Kibito's power, he did sacrifice his secret about being the golden warrior and transformed into a SSJ in front of the entire crowd to fight Kibito. And the Daizenshuu 7 entry on Kibito potentially giving Gohan a good fight certainly help.

Freeza > Kibito is something that I never understood though, and I'm on the Freeza > Base Saiyans boat. Why would Kaioshin bring Kibito up? He's not a Kaioshin. His kind didn't get annihilated like the Kaioshins were. Kaioshin was specifically talking about how the other Kaioshins got destroyed by Boo, Kibito has no business in this.

so you either concede to the idea that Base Gohan ~ Kibito > Base Trunks ~ #18 >> Freeza or you have nothing.

Why wouldn't anyone? Kibito doesn't need to be a SSjin 3 to be strong :mikey

And on your point over how the Daizenshuu implies Trunks ~ 18, what about the Daizenshuu also implying Gohan and Dabra had a even fight? Does that mean Dabra wasn't holding back either?

Z Sword.

 

[GSM123]

You could look at it like that, though context is important and it can be seen as an even fight in the same way Base Goku VS Freeza or Goku VS Cell were seemingly even fights. With Dabura, there's at least some reason to argue he would be holding back such as calling Gohan trash or how he wanted to toy with guys he expected to be weaker than Pui Pui, whereas #18's character motivations combined with her general performance would go heavily against the idea of her doing the same.

Well Kuririn did warn her against killing people, and #18 is known to hold back based on her fight with Vegeta.

Z Sword.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Well Kuririn did warn her against killing people, and #18 is known to hold back based on her fight with Vegeta.

Trunks VS #18 debates in a threadl containing the words "base" and "Freeza": "I am inevitable."

It'd only take her a few blows to determine how much effort she needed to use. We've also seen from the punching machine and her fight with Vegeta she and her brother both have a good level of control over their effort (eg. #17's punch not ripping straight through Tenshinhan), so all that would be required if she was indeed far stronger than Mighty Mask would be to just hit him with enough effort to KO one of the boys without causing serious damage. Against Vegeta, her motivation was purely to kill time, whereas she was purely in the Budokai to get it over with and walk home with a cash prize ASAP.

 

[Omhig]

Base Saiyans < Frieza is pretty BS imo.

 

[SSJ2]

The only thing supporting it is Beerus' statement in BoG, which can easily be explained by Goku suppressing his ki.

 

[Omhig]

Tbf, Beerus didn't even directly say he couldn't beat Frieza, either. All he did was poke Goku a few times and say "Seeing you now, I don't THINK you could".
Ntm, Goku was hiding from Beerus a few moments earlier, why wouldn't he be suppressed?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The only thing supporting it is Beerus' statement in BoG, which can easily be explained by Goku suppressing his ki.

Wouldn't even say Goku would need to be suppressed for Beerus' statement to hold no weight. After all, Beerus had seen Goku fight Freeza as a SSJ, saw his appearance was far different when meeting him and only said he must have needed to transform to beat Freeza, which he very well knew already. All Beerus' statement really shows is that Beerus' eyesight isn't bad.

 

[GSM123]

Trunks VS #18 debates in a threadl containing the words "base" and "Freeza": "I am inevitable."

It'd only take her a few blows to determine how much effort she needed to use. We've also seen from the punching machine and her fight with Vegeta she and her brother both have a good level of control over their effort (eg. #17's punch not ripping straight through Tenshinhan), so all that would be required if she was indeed far stronger than Mighty Mask would be to just hit him with enough effort to KO one of the boys without causing serious damage. Against Vegeta, her motivation was purely to kill time, whereas she was purely in the Budokai to get it over with and walk home with a cash prize ASAP.

A few blows is basically the duration of the entire fight though. After the beginning part where they exchange blows #18 gets the definitive upperhand by knocking the boys against the ground pretty badly and blasting them.

Did #17 really punch Tenshinhan? All I remember is him getting the bald guy on a headlock after punching Piccolo. Besidee, #18 might be a bit rusty given how it takes her two tries to punch the machine properly.

Given her curiosity over how strong Mighty Mask was, I wouldn’t be surprised if she wasn’t as eager to finish the fight and go home anymore.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

A few blows is basically the duration of the entire fight though. After the beginning part where they exchange blows #18 gets the definitive upperhand by knocking the boys against the ground pretty badly and blasting them.

Putting in enough force to knock them into the ground makes it apparent she definitely was aware he wasn't an ordinary fighter at that point, and that being the case, there was little reason to hold back any more than necessary to swiftly end the fight.

Did #17 really punch Tenshinhan? All I remember is him getting the bald guy on a headlock after punching Piccolo.

You corrected me as I got his defeat mixed up with Piccolo. The fact #17 didn't break his neck accidentally in the process says a lot about their control though.

Besidee, #18 might be a bit rusty given how it takes her two tries to punch the machine properly.

The punching machine was something with far less durability than either of the boys though, or any opponent she'd faced prior to it, and she still got the hang of it by the second try.

Given her curiosity over how strong Mighty Mask was, I wouldn’t be surprised if she wasn’t as eager to finish the fight and go home anymore.

Except that she was more than willing to end the fight when put at an undeniable disadvantage against the Super Saiyans through a Kienzan rather than testing her limits in the same vein as the rest of the cast. She even declined helping her husband in a dangerous situation due to there being no money involved, so it's safe to say her interest in battle is nowhere near the extent of the other fighters. Her curiosity seemed to be out of sheer confusion at Mighty Mask's strength and build rather than an interest in his abilities.

 

[Alin]

The only thing supporting it is Beerus' statement in BoG, which can easily be explained by Goku suppressing his ki.

I think the easiest explanation is that Beerus saw Goku as a Super Saiyan against Freeza, and he wanted Goku to go SSJ in that moment.

 

[ahill1]

Plus in the anime Beerus states, when Goku turns into a SSJ, that beating Freeza is the best he could do, implying Freeza wouldn't be a walk on the park for post fucking Boo saga Goku. Couple that with Beerus stating in the manga that now he sees how Goku could do away with Freeza ONLY after he becomes a SSJ2 and it's possible Beerus may have been overestimating Freeza quite a bit.