- Joined
- Jun 19, 2015
- Messages
- 8,308
Since everything after Cell Games is a mess and there's evidence for both sides at everything, let's decide, at each topic, what we shall go with
based on what sounds more correct from a writing/thematic point of view...
1. Pocus, Yakon, Base Saiyans and Freeza
Babidi's spell brought the warriors just to their limits, not beyond them like Old Kai. I don't think the limits of random creatures like Pocus or
Yakon would allow them to beat Freeza; he was the galactic tyrant for a reason. Since Base Goku was even with Yakon, we conclude Base Saiyans
are also weaker than Freeza. This sounds more right, considering it was implied at Freeza Saga that no Saiyan would ever be able to beat Freeza
without transforming and it makes Freeza more fearsome. As for the Kids vs Eighteen, it took place at an enviroment that does not allow one
to draw much conclusion; one can just get good laughs from this fight without the need to give it much thought.
CONCLUSION: Pocus<Yakon~Base Goku<Freeza
2. Kaioshin
Since he's supposed to be a deity, it sounds more right if we give him some credit and place him above every power displayed before the advent
of Perfect Cell.
CONCLUSION: Kaioshin>Piccolo
3. Gohan vs Dabura
I think it is obvious that, from a writing point of view, it is better for Gohan to be SSJ1, since he never trained with SSJ2. All the problem is in
him going SSJ2 in the tournament. But don't forget Goku also went SSJ1again without the anger right away when Freeza threw the disc and
Gohan went SSJ2 again without the anger right away when Super Perfect Cell showed up. I think it is safe to say that, after an anger stimulant,
a little leftover anger stays for a while, so Gohan could go SSJ2 at 25th with his leftover anger for Videl's beating. Goku's statement about
Dabura, in a sense, gives you the feeling it was about the Cell he had fought.
CONCLUSION: SSJ1
4. Buu
If you take out Goku's statement in Buu's body, the story can roll perfectly fine with SSJ3 Goku being stronger than Super Buu; over the whole
saga, Gotenks and Gohan were fighting the small fry Goku could've beaten but opted not to because he was dead and felt it wasn't right to be
the one to do it and because he wanted the next generation to learn how to take care of themselves. The transformation of Fat Buu into Super
Buu can still have meaning in the plot without his actual power changing; so much else changed: Buu's skill, heart and ki sensing ability. Besides,
plot wise, it is more dramatic if, when Kid Buu shows up, it is revealed that the formidable enemy they've been trying to defeat over the whole
saga was nothing more than a weakened version of the true, ruthless Buu.
CONCLUSION: Fat Buu = Super Buu < Kid Buu = SSJ3 Goku
5. Gotenks
The pre rosat versions of Gotenks were gag experiments you can get good laughs from. No need to use them as serious evidence for conclusions.
Since Piccolo asked them to train a little (before deciding to send them in the rosat) and he says nothing about that being an idea of his, it
is not unreasonable to assume Goku expected them to train a little to turn into the dreamy warrior he hoped they would become. And this
warrior only shows up in the spirit room. He is able to somewhat fight Super Buu (=Innocent Buu), which is what actually Goku expected; that it
would be a tough fight and they would ''win somehow'' (and don't forget his statement about this being a ''big gamble''). After Gotenks becomes
SSJ3 (which is when he goes beyond Goku's expectations), he goes from somewhat weaker to somewhat stronger than Buu, which implies that
a. He bypassed SSJ2 and b. SSJ3 has a small multiplier for fusions Lastly, Piccolo's implications about Base post>SSJ pre are unnecessary hax
the story can perfectly do without.
CONCLUSION: Gotenks pre < Gotenks post < SSJ Gotenks pre < SSJ2s< SSJ Gotenks post< Fat Buu= Super Buu< SSJ3 Gotenks
based on what sounds more correct from a writing/thematic point of view...
1. Pocus, Yakon, Base Saiyans and Freeza
Babidi's spell brought the warriors just to their limits, not beyond them like Old Kai. I don't think the limits of random creatures like Pocus or
Yakon would allow them to beat Freeza; he was the galactic tyrant for a reason. Since Base Goku was even with Yakon, we conclude Base Saiyans
are also weaker than Freeza. This sounds more right, considering it was implied at Freeza Saga that no Saiyan would ever be able to beat Freeza
without transforming and it makes Freeza more fearsome. As for the Kids vs Eighteen, it took place at an enviroment that does not allow one
to draw much conclusion; one can just get good laughs from this fight without the need to give it much thought.
CONCLUSION: Pocus<Yakon~Base Goku<Freeza
2. Kaioshin
Since he's supposed to be a deity, it sounds more right if we give him some credit and place him above every power displayed before the advent
of Perfect Cell.
CONCLUSION: Kaioshin>Piccolo
3. Gohan vs Dabura
I think it is obvious that, from a writing point of view, it is better for Gohan to be SSJ1, since he never trained with SSJ2. All the problem is in
him going SSJ2 in the tournament. But don't forget Goku also went SSJ1again without the anger right away when Freeza threw the disc and
Gohan went SSJ2 again without the anger right away when Super Perfect Cell showed up. I think it is safe to say that, after an anger stimulant,
a little leftover anger stays for a while, so Gohan could go SSJ2 at 25th with his leftover anger for Videl's beating. Goku's statement about
Dabura, in a sense, gives you the feeling it was about the Cell he had fought.
CONCLUSION: SSJ1
4. Buu
If you take out Goku's statement in Buu's body, the story can roll perfectly fine with SSJ3 Goku being stronger than Super Buu; over the whole
saga, Gotenks and Gohan were fighting the small fry Goku could've beaten but opted not to because he was dead and felt it wasn't right to be
the one to do it and because he wanted the next generation to learn how to take care of themselves. The transformation of Fat Buu into Super
Buu can still have meaning in the plot without his actual power changing; so much else changed: Buu's skill, heart and ki sensing ability. Besides,
plot wise, it is more dramatic if, when Kid Buu shows up, it is revealed that the formidable enemy they've been trying to defeat over the whole
saga was nothing more than a weakened version of the true, ruthless Buu.
CONCLUSION: Fat Buu = Super Buu < Kid Buu = SSJ3 Goku
5. Gotenks
The pre rosat versions of Gotenks were gag experiments you can get good laughs from. No need to use them as serious evidence for conclusions.
Since Piccolo asked them to train a little (before deciding to send them in the rosat) and he says nothing about that being an idea of his, it
is not unreasonable to assume Goku expected them to train a little to turn into the dreamy warrior he hoped they would become. And this
warrior only shows up in the spirit room. He is able to somewhat fight Super Buu (=Innocent Buu), which is what actually Goku expected; that it
would be a tough fight and they would ''win somehow'' (and don't forget his statement about this being a ''big gamble''). After Gotenks becomes
SSJ3 (which is when he goes beyond Goku's expectations), he goes from somewhat weaker to somewhat stronger than Buu, which implies that
a. He bypassed SSJ2 and b. SSJ3 has a small multiplier for fusions Lastly, Piccolo's implications about Base post>SSJ pre are unnecessary hax
the story can perfectly do without.
CONCLUSION: Gotenks pre < Gotenks post < SSJ Gotenks pre < SSJ2s< SSJ Gotenks post< Fat Buu= Super Buu< SSJ3 Gotenks
