Gohan (base state) vs Kibito --> explanation

[ahill1]

What do you think of the explanation some people use to defend the Daizenshuu entry, which says Gohan would have a rough time against Kibito without transforming?

They say Gohan could lift the Z sword due to possessing a bigger arm/body strength, while their "chi" level should be the same, pretty much using the stated "battle power is just a measure of chi level".

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Maybe he got a zenkai after being beaten by Fat Buu.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I don't think there's a contradiction at all other than this ''Muh powah levals doesn't make sense."

 

[SSJ2]

That sounds like a load of Kanzenshit aids to me.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The best explanation is that the Daizenshuu isn't perfect, especially given it's cherrypicking due to some of it's info being contradicted or retconned. It's statement in regard to Kibito seem to be based on Goku stating that Kibito didn't seem like the average joe, considering outside of him, the Zet-Senshi, Shin, Lord :bitch and Bottom Bitch Yamu, the rest of the competition was as average as you can get by DB martial artist standards. The statement could be given to practically anyone with better Ki control than Videl in this context.
It's the same as using the Daiz statement of Kaioshin > Piccolo based on Piccolo's statement when, at least by Super's continuity, neither Piccolo nor anyone else were capable of sensing Kaioshin, or giving the Daiz precedence in debating Piccolo Daimao > BoZ Tenshithands.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Gohan says on the Manga he couldn't beat Kibito "by accident", so he should be someone respectable to base Gohan, but the Z Sword scene shows thay Gohan has the edge. But you can say Kibito = Base Gohan based on this "Brute strength =/= Ki", though.

 

[ahill1]

The best explanation is that the Daizenshuu isn't perfect, especially given it's cherrypicking due to some of it's info being contradicted or retconned. It's statement in regard to Kibito seem to be based on Goku stating that Kibito didn't seem like the average joe, considering outside of him, the Zet-Senshi, Shin, Lord :bitch and Bottom Bitch Yamu, the rest of the competition was as average as you can get by DB martial artist standards. The statement could be given to practically anyone with better Ki control than Videl in this context.
It's the same as using the Daiz statement of Kaioshin > Piccolo based on Piccolo's statement when, at least by Super's continuity, neither Piccolo nor anyone else were capable of sensing Kaioshin, or giving the Daiz precedence in debating Piccolo Daimao > BoZ Tenshithands.

But how'd you refute such point?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

In Super, Goku sensed Vegeta's power and said he was about as strong as himself, if not stronger. That shows they're roughly equal.

When they were training with Whis, Goku could not lift the weights at all. Whis intentionally made Vegeta's heavier and Vegeta could lift them with no problem. Vegeta said that strength wasn't the only factor, and said there was a trick to lifting them.

I guess my point is even though Kibito is clearly the inferior in terms of physical power, there's really no telling how an actual battle would look. It'd come down to a lot more than that. I doubt Kaioshin's puny ass could lift the Z-Sword, but his abilities would allow him to make quick work of Gohan regardless. We don't know anything about Kibito's fighting ability, though. We just know he should've been able to counter/dodge Dabra's attack according to Vegeta, and we know he's no match for Zamasu in Super.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Indeed, power =/= toughness, power=/= speed, power=/= durability etc.,

 

[ahill1]

In Super, Goku sensed Vegeta's power and said he was about as strong as himself, if not stronger. That shows they're roughly equal.When they were training with Whis, Goku could not lift the weights at all. Whis intentionally made Vegeta's heavier and Vegeta could lift them with no problem. Vegeta said that strength wasn't the only factor, and said there was a trick to lifting them.

But what would be the trick? Having more "muscular power"? That hardly seems like a trick to me.

Sometimes it seems "whenever you have a higher chi, more you can lift" is a consistent trend... Goku couln't lift 40 tons and had to turn into a SSJ to do so, the same way Trunks couldn't overcome the 50x gravity and had to turn into a SSJ, or Gohan doing the same to take off the Zeta sword.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I have no idea. Vegeta's pretty much implying there's a method to lifting them not pertaining to raw strength only, though. I don't know how else it could be interpreted. All we know is they're not that different from one another and Vegeta can lift much heavier weights than Goku can.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I have no idea. Vegeta's pretty much implying there's a method to lifting them not pertaining to raw strength only, though. I don't know how else it could be interpreted. All we know is they're not that different from one another and Vegeta can lift much heavier weights than Goku can.

It could be just as simple as the real world logic of Galu not having the right posture for lifting. That can really make the difference when it comes to lifting involving the leg and back muscles.

 

[ahill1]

I believe this trick wasn't related to "muscular strength", which is what the Gohan ~ Kibito supportes uses to believe Gohan has more than Kibito.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Well, it's honestly impossible to really gauge Kibito's fighting ability. He got outclassed by Zamasu, though Zamasu still considered him a "skillful" fighter. That's the only battle we've ever seen of him.

Even looking at the Daizenshuu quote, it seems to be from the standpoint of Kibito being weaker. All I take from that is Gohan is stronger, but not to a point where Kibito can't give put up a good fight. Gohan's fighting skills got rusty, too, so that could potentially make the battle a tougher one for him.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Indeed, power =/= toughness, power=/= speed, power=/= durability etc.,

Power = Power, though

 

[ahill1]

I have no idea. Vegeta's pretty much implying there's a method to lifting them not pertaining to raw strength only, though. I don't know how else it could be interpreted. All we know is they're not that different from one another and Vegeta can lift much heavier weights than Goku can.

It could be just as simple as the real world logic of Galu not having the right posture for lifting. That can really make the difference when it comes to lifting involving the leg and back muscles.

That makes sense. I doubt those Saiyans would know anything about "techniques while lifting" considering their knowledge seems limited to something more related to a hand to hand combat.

Well, it's honestly impossible to really gauge Kibito's fighting ability. He got outclassed by Zamasu, though Zamasu still considered him a "skillful" fighter. That's the only battle we've ever seen of him.

Even looking at the Daizenshuu quote, it seems to be from the standpoint of Kibito being weaker. All I take from that is Gohan is stronger, but not to a point where Kibito can't give put up a good fight. Gohan's fighting skills got rusty, too, so that could potentially make the battle a tougher one for him.

Yeah, but I think "raw strength" would be the main factor in a hypothetical fight between Gohan and Kibito, no?

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Indeed, power =/= toughness, power=/= speed, power=/= durability etc.,

Power = Power, though

Then how was Cell capable of increasing his speed independently from his strength?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I would think so, ahill.

The Daizenshuu makes it seem like they're close in power, but Base Gohan should be much stronger. I'll just say this: I think Kibito would put up a good fight, but would still lose. I can't think of any other way to gauge his power.

 

[xmysticgohanx]

In Super, Goku sensed Vegeta's power and said he was about as strong as himself, if not stronger. That shows they're roughly equal.

When they were training with Whis, Goku could not lift the weights at all. Whis intentionally made Vegeta's heavier and Vegeta could lift them with no problem. Vegeta said that strength wasn't the only factor, and said there was a trick to lifting them.

I guess my point is even though Kibito is clearly the inferior in terms of physical power, there's really no telling how an actual battle would look. It'd come down to a lot more than that. I doubt Kaioshin's puny ass could lift the Z-Sword, but his abilities would allow him to make quick work of Gohan regardless. We don't know anything about Kibito's fighting ability, though. We just know he should've been able to counter/dodge Dabra's attack according to Vegeta, and we know he's no match for Zamasu in Super.

It's possible that Goku's weights were the same as Vegeta's so the comparison isn't valid

 

[Evil Vegeta]

It isn't possible. Whis said he made Vegeta's weights heavier.