Gohan SSJ vs SSJ2 --> breakdown

ahill1

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Ok, after reading the manga many times and witnessing many debates regarding this matter, I think I'll make a complete breakdown regarding whether Gohan might be a SSJ or a SSJ2. You pick what make more sense to you.


Gohan was a SSJ1 vs Dabura

The most undenieable argument someone will use to defend it is the art. Gohan was clearly portrayed as a SSJ looking just at the art. The first appearence of a SSJ2 in the manga was through Gohan in the Cell Games, which was described in the Daizenshuu as a SSJ2. He had a spikier aura and sparks on his aura for 90% of the time. It disappeared, although for a very short while and quickly reappeared after and some of the panels he didn't have sparks was even due to the absence of aura, and as many argue, the sparks are a trait of the aura, they happen when the aura is on, and no aura, no sparks.

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So clearly constant sparks, and the fews panels he doesn't have it are easily overshadowed by the ones he constantly DOES have it. Saying we can't really say the sparks are a trait of SSJ2 because they aren't present through 100% of the time and are rather present through 90% or more of the time is a logical fallacy. Even more when we might have a confirmation that an aura with sparks and one without one are a clearly differentiation between SSJ and SSJ2 for the author himself, who makes this point through Goku himself differentiating SSJ and SSJ2 before Babidi:

CYqrHuB.png


Some people use Babidi's line in the next panel as a way to invalidate the argument, though what Babidi really says is "ridiculous transformations... there's no great change, is there?", which just means SSJ2 doesn't look too different from SSJ, not that there's no difference at all.


Gohan against Dabura is clearly missing those SSJ2's traits. He doesn't have sparks for ANY moment (which isn't cmparable with missing it for very few panels), and whilst one could argue he does have the hair as a SSJ2 trait, he also displayed a hair with one strand when transforming against during Videl's beatdown, when he was 'almost undeniably' a SSJ. So the hair can easily be argued as an art change, or just a small oversight from Toriyama -- yeah, missing one strand of hair is way easier to be looked upon as an oversight than missing a way clearer trait like the constant sparks --


Even when SSJ2 was already kind of 'outdated' and overshadowed by the SSJ3, Akira Toriyama still made a point to detail Vegeta's aura against Kid Boo with sparks, also only missing it for very few panels.

ef4KvJW.png




Also, concerning the narrative/the story, there're some point one could use to favor the SSJ side as well. Vegeta states he'd defeat Dabura and pretty much considers that level Gohan and Dabura fought at as a very low one -- Goku also agrees, although in a less 'arrogant or straight way' -- yet Goku doesn't suspect Vegeta had SSJ2, as seen by his surprise when Vegeta transformed:

YnqXEFj.png



Majin Vegeta SSJ is also arguably treated as a bigger deal than Dabura. One could say Dabura was expecting him to make a better job because Gohan would have to be fighting against a 'friend', hence not fighting at his fullest. But it still would be pretty much stupid for Dabura to choose someone weaker than him as that someone wouldn't be able to deal damage to Gohan, seeing as himself could barely move the damage meter when launching a very powerful attack. You could say Dabura doesn't know how strong Vegeta is, but since he could say there were three people with exceptional power hiding behind those rocks, it's understandable he'd also manage to gauge Vegeta's powers when seeing Babidi push it 'out of him'.


Gohan was a SSJ2 vs Dabura

The mojority of people who support this will use the narrative as a flat out indicator of Gohan fighting in SSJ2 against Dabura. First thing would be Goku comparing Dabura with Cell and later stating he's way stronger than thought. Well, even if you think Goku meant the Cell he fought, he later stated that Dabura's way stronger than thought, and as many would argue kid Gohan wasn't stronger than suppressed Cell -- had only a speed advantage -- let alone MUCH stronger. Yet, Gohan could stay pretty evenly with Dabura, and was barely damaged from his blast. Since Gohan was stated to be way weaker than his CGs self, him staying somewhat even with Dabura doesn't make sense if he were using a form as low as SSJ.

039.jpg
--> Gohan barely damaged upon receiving a blast from someone way stronger than Cell.

Yet, Goku made clear in the Cell Games Gohan's anger was the only way to beat Cell... Gohan's current power was nice and all, but the anger was da real shit. Even Gohan stated that now he sees what Goku was planning since the beginning -- Gohan getting angry -- and that that is the way to beat Cell. So, a considerably weaker Gohan going toe to toe with an opponent like that doesn't make much sense if he is using just SSJ.


Vegeta is also very impatient over Gohan's struggle with Dabura, saying Gohan was stronger in the CGs and that Dabura's not an opponent he should have this much problem with. Again, without even making reference of a form that Gohan used minutes ago that would undoubtedly defeat Dabura, if Gohan was a SSJ1. Not only this, but Goku establishes that Gohan has to get angry like in the CGs to triumph in the fight, pretty much emphasizing Gohan's hidden powers. If Gohan was a SSJ1, shouldn't be saying "do what you did at the Budokai" suffice here? Since Dabura would be pretty much easily defeatable by Gohan SSJ2.

Kaioshin also pretty much parrots what Goku says:


Chapter: 460 (DBZ 266), P10.2-3
Context: after Boo seems to be dead on arrival
Kaioshin: “Goku and Vegeta are probably having a roughly even fight…I’ll pin Babidi down. After that, if you can manage to defeat Dabra, then Babidi’s scheme will be completely wiped out! So then! Now’s the time to get angry, like Goku said! Get angry and show me your true power! Gohan, peace is almost at hand!”

Kaioshin saw Gohan SSJ2 at the Budokai and even considered the possibility of it not being his full power. It wouldn't make sense for Kaioshin to urge some hidden power out of Gohan he heard from Goku if what he saw at the Budokai were already enough to get the job done.

Furthermore, you also have Kaioshin telling Kibito that what he saw from Gohan at the Budokai wasn't his full power, meaning Gohan had to have showed more power after the Budokai (or Kaioshin thought that way).

Chapter: 470 (DBZ 276), P5.2-4
Context: Kaioshin says the situation isn’t completely hopeless
Kibito: “Huh…!? You can’t mean…Does this have anything to do with Son Gohan…?”
Kaioshin: “That’s right…His power is far beyond our imagination. If we took it and changed it into something even more unreal, he might be able to surpass Majin Boo…”
Kibito: “Wh-what!? That can’t be…”
Kaioshin: “You didn’t see how amazing those 3 Saiyans were, so you probably couldn’t imagine…”

Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P10.2-4
Kaioshin: “I want Gohan to use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo. Knowing him, he should definitely be able to use it.”
Kibito: “A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that some human would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…”
Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

This is directly linked with Kaioshin stating that what Gohan showed at the Budokai might not have been his full power:

dVGS3CZ.jpg




Another nice point is Gohan tiring out and needing a Senzu Beam after Dabura's battle, simply because he had used a lot of stamina:

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Yet, this goes against the main advantage a full power SSJ is supposed to have, according to Goku:

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The regular SSJ was conditioned to minimize the strain on their bodies during battle:

2w1s7eg.jpg


Daizenshuu established that what was initially shown from the battle between Gohan and Dabura was its beginning, and Gohan didn't make use of chi blasts, didn't take much damage from Dabura's blast, anything that'd deplete his stamina, unless he was in a form he had no full control over/wasn't trained to minimize the strain during battle -- SSJ2.





I can later offer some counter arguments to both sides (yeah, I have some points that might as well counter the narrative being so directed towards SSJ2, mainly counters towards the SSJ2 POV), but I think I'll just let you guys with the points concerning the two sides now.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Nice breakdown Ahill. But i have a few points to complain here:

- How can you prove Gohan was a SSJ at Lord :bitch? Some can argue he was SSJ2 based on his hairstyle:
cjyx7mbSRhmbS6q7iLZO1g.png

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- You should add Gohan only mentioning SSJ2 when Goku and Vegeta fight/Dabura being unable to harm Gohan despite both being SSJ2 tier on the SSJ side as well.

- Goku and Vegeta's coments can be used to argue either way as well. I take Goku saying "It's not like he's completely losing" as a "He's not even at full power yet"

- Mastering SSJ doesn't mean you are never getting tired again, though. It's not the form's strain thats tiring Gohan, but Gohan's lack of stamina. If i can run 100 miles in 10 minutes and then slack off for months or years, i'll be hella exhausted if i try to perform the same feat.
 

ahill1

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How can you prove Gohan was a SSJ at Lord :bitch? Some can argue he was SSJ2 based on his hairstyle:
Well, Gohan being a SSJ2 there doesn't make sense neither from an art nor from a storytelling stand point. The few SSJ2 supporters who argue against the art undeniably showing SSJ have to argue for Gohan being a SSJ2 there, otherwise their "hair" argument will totally fall flat.
You should add Gohan only mentioning SSJ2 when Goku and Vegeta fight/Dabura being unable to harm Gohan despite both being SSJ2 tier on the SSJ side as well.
Good one! Will add it.
Goku and Vegeta's coments can be used to argue either way as well. I take Goku saying "It's not like he's completely losing" as a "He's not even at full power yet"
Fair enough, I guess.
Mastering SSJ doesn't mean you are never getting tired again, though. It's not the form's strain thats tiring Gohan, but Gohan's lack of stamina. If i can run 100 miles in 10 minutes and then slack off for months or years, i'll be hella exhausted if i try to perform the same feat.
Like if Gohan wasn't a mastered Super Saiyajin anymore? Well, he seemed pretty natural in the form when training with Goten and beating those robers, with those "rounding eyes" and many panels without the aura. But maybe his mastery over it isn't the same as the one he demonstrated 7 years ago.
 

SSJ2

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I can't read this but it looks good.
 

ahill1

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might be a good analysis but still not nearly as good as one from master Pyrus

I wish I could write more and make arguments and counter arguments, but my brain just doesn't work well after a while.
 

SSJ2

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Kaioshin saw Gohan SSJ2 at the Budokai and even considered the possibility of it not being his full power. It wouldn't make sense for Kaioshin to urge some hidden power out of Gohan he heard from Goku if what he saw at the Budokai were already enough to get the job done.

Furthermore, you also have Kaioshin telling Kibito that what he saw from Gohan at the Budokai wasn't his full power, meaning Gohan had to have showed more power after the Budokai (or Kaioshin thought that way)

dVGS3CZ.jpg

This all feeds into the retcon in my opinion. Unless you want to argue SSJ Vegeta > SSJ2 Teen Gohan, which is nonsense.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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ahill1 said:
Well, Gohan being a SSJ2 there doesn't make sense neither from an art nor from a storytelling stand point. The few SSJ2 supporters who argue against the art undeniably showing SSJ have to argue for Gohan being a SSJ2 there, otherwise their "hair" argument will totally fall flat.

Yeah, Gohan hair must have grown, it's a month later, after all. But why it wouldn't make sense from a story point of view? Kibito wasn't there to see Gohan's power.

Like if Gohan wasn't a mastered Super Saiyajin anymore? Well, he seemed pretty natural in the form when training with Goten and beating those robers, with those "rounding eyes" and many panels without the aura. But maybe his mastery over it isn't the same as the one he demonstrated 7 years ago.

No, you got it wrong.

MSSJ eliminates the form's strain, but the fighter himself can still suffer from strain. You can see this when Goku loses a shit ton of stamina in the Cell Games. Gohan has been rusty for 7 years, so his stamina clearly got worse. He was struggling and sweating as fuck to break Dabura's sword.

might be a good analysis but still not nearly as good as one from master Pyrus

KP did a breakdown on this? :eek:dawg link!

SuperSaiyan2 said:
This all feeds into the retcon in my opinion. Unless you want to argue SSJ Vegeta > SSJ2 Teen Gohan, which is nonsense.

Any reason to be nonsense? Gohan can be down on Warm up Cell level or Vegeta can just be multifolder stronger than Gohan for all we know.
 

ahill1

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SuperSaiyan2 said:
Kaioshin saw Gohan SSJ2 at the Budokai and even considered the possibility of it not being his full power. It wouldn't make sense for Kaioshin to urge some hidden power out of Gohan he heard from Goku if what he saw at the Budokai were already enough to get the job done.

Furthermore, you also have Kaioshin telling Kibito that what he saw from Gohan at the Budokai wasn't his full power, meaning Gohan had to have showed more power after the Budokai (or Kaioshin thought that way)

dVGS3CZ.jpg

This all feeds into the retcon in my opinion. Unless you want to argue SSJ Vegeta > SSJ2 Teen Gohan, which is nonsense.


He flat out made notice of how hard it was paralyzing Gohan at the Budokai though. Doesn't it sound strange with a retcon? Anyway, why ssj Vegeta > ssj2 Gohan?


But why it wouldn't make sense from a story point of view? Kibito wasn't there to see Gohan's power.
Kibito and Kaioshin already knew Gohan could transform, so the revelation that he could go beyond that was supposed to be a big deal. That doesn't work if Gohan just showed the form minutes ago. Vegeta also immeaditely noticed Gohan's decline in power as if that were a big deal. He stares right at Gohan when he transformed backstage and didn't say anything. None of that makes an ounce of sense if Gohan had already went beyond Super Saiyajin.

They didn't see Gohan transforming, but because of the revelation of the form itself as well as Vegeta's comments pertaining it -- and not saying anything before -- makes the usage of the form there hugely unlikely.
MSSJ eliminates the form's strain, but the fighter himself can still suffer from strain. You can see this when Goku loses a shit ton of stamina in the Cell Games. Gohan has been rusty for 7 years, so his stamina clearly got worse. He was struggling and sweating as fuck to break Dabura's sword.
Hmm, I think that's a pretty fair point. Haven't considered it. You are kind of saying the form's strain was minimized -- the form was still mastered -- but Gohan's stamina undoubtedly got worse, which would make the form's stamina shittier even if it's supposed to still be mastered, right?
KP did a breakdown on this?
I was speaking more of his breakdowns in general, not just pertaining to this subject. Look at his breakdown on Gogeta:
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8402385/1/
 

SSJ2

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@GSM123 Gohan can suppress while SSJ2?

@ahill Kaioshin is surprised at Vegeta's strength after witnessing Gohan. That makes no sense. Kaioshin makes it sound like he has only seen SSJ Gohan in that statement.
 

ahill1

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SuperSaiyan2 said:
@GSM123 Gohan can suppress while SSJ2?

@ahill Kaioshin is surprised at Vegeta's strength after witnessing Gohan. That makes no sense. Kaioshin makes it sound like he has only seen SSJ Gohan in that statement.

Do you mean after Vegeta had defeated Pui Pui?
 

Let's Go Fearless!

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1. Vegeta clearly said that he and Goku are stronger than Gohan now and Gohan might surpass them if he goes frenzy which pretty much sums up that SSjin2 Goku and Vegeta > SSjin2 Gohan.

2. Vegeta is disgusted by Gohan's performance against Dabura.

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

If you look at Vegeta's statement, you can clearly see that he was referring SSjin2 Kid Gohan from Cell Games which makes sense if Gohan was fighting Dabura as SSjin2 but not SSjin. Moreover, Dabura is said to be on par with Cell and it doesn't make sense if they were referring suppressed Cell since the statement would be false given that Cell is extremely strong.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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SuperSaiyan2 said:
@GSM123 Gohan can suppress while SSJ2?

No, i'm not talking about this. I mean what stops one of arguing Gohan can be so pathetic he's down on SS

@ahill Kaioshin is surprised at Vegeta's strength after witnessing Gohan. That makes no sense. Kaioshin makes it sound like he has only seen SSJ Gohan in that statement.
[/quote]

Tbh Gohan being retconed to SSJ doesn't help much. Either the full transformation was retconed or Shin is like "ZOMG they don't even nees to transform to trash me and those fags!!1!1!" with the later being the most likely option since Kibito recognizes SSJ Gohan during the Z Sword scene.
 

SSJ2

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He's SSJ2 in both cases. At the Budokai, his resting ki was so powerful that he had the regular SSJ2 aura with lightning. Against Dabura, he felt bad for Dabura for being so weak that he purposely held back his power and donned a Super Saiyan aura as a measure of psychological warfare.
 

Hector

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Why don't you just go with my SSJ1.5 theory? Gohan could only partly access his SSJ2 powers against Dabura.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Man, I miss posts like these. Nowadays everyone just knows all the points anyway so no need to post scans and quotes and stuff, or even do lenghty breakdowns like these.


He's SSJ2 in both cases. At the Budokai, his resting ki was so powerful that he had the regular SSJ2 aura with lightning. Against Dabura, he felt bad for Dabura for being so weak that he purposely held back his power and donned a Super Saiyan aura as a measure of psychological warfare.

Fail because Dabra is Cell tier.
 

SSJ2

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Who said you can't still make posts like this? Clearly we still disagree in many areas. Not to mention there haven't been any threads like this for Super.
 
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