Goku and Piccolo's battle powers vs Raditz

[ahill1]

The discussion in another forum inspired me...

Do you think that 416 and 408 were representative of their full power, or did they increase it as engaged against Raditz?

 

[SSJ2]

I'd like to think that was their resting ki. When we saw Goku take on Raditz 1v1, sure, he stood no chance at all, but he was able to hang in there pretty well to allow Piccolo to charge the Makankosappo. I don't see that being possible if he was 3x weaker than Raditz.

Also more of a preference thing, but I prefer the KHH being amped less than 2.2x at that point in the series. It leads to unnecessary bloating when considering Android Saga Piccolo thought Cell's KHH was trash. If Goku is more in the 600 range, that leads to a more modest boost to the KHH. It could also help explain why Piccolo was able to "tank" the KHH in the 23rd Budokai. Imo there's just no need for that attack to have such a large boost.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The Daizenshuu states pretty clearly that 408 was Piccolo's full power at the time and the only "evidence" to the contrary tends to be the fanbased idea of what should be capable of with certain battle power gaps, despite this being something Toriyama never treat as a linear system of scale. That said, there's no real evidence for those two numbers not being representative of their full power.

 

[SSJ2]

Daizenshuu also has Nappa at 4,000 and Piccolo at 3,500.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Those are entries contradicted by the manga, whereas nothing within the manga itself directly contradicts 408 being Piccolo's full power without the Makankosappo. It's also quite telling Raditz never made any note of their battle powers changing at all outside of their special attacks, despite how quick he was to comment on the increase of Galu's Kamehameha with each passing second.

 

[SSJ2]

Raditz likely wouldn't have felt the need to note an overall insignificant change to their battle powers.

It would feel redundant for Raditz to mention an increase of a couple hundred when he has already established that it would make no difference.

What he did note were major increases in battle power that happened instantaneously - Piccolo charging to 1,030, Goku to 924, Gohan's rage boosts..

 

[Captain Cadaver]

If anything, Raditz's statement coupled with that of him saying how he'd slowly increase his effort after having already blitzed and overpowered them initially cements that the 400 range was where their power stood, as well as go against the idea of them being significantly above that. The 600 or so range you proposed is still a significant increase regardless of it being irrelevant to Raditz, and he'd already took notice of the smaller increase from them taking off their weights.
More importantly, the idea of them having more power to display rests solely on the idea of the gaps being too large, despite it being apparent Toriyama didn't treat battle power gaps or amplification as consistent numerically. Comparisons of destructive feats combined with Kaioken linearly boosting all stats show how relevant a gap is for feats compared to what it is numerically makes that more than apparent.

 

[ahill1]

Raditz also complimented their defense post his first attack. And he commented on Goku being "tough" when this latter resisted his barrage of attacks and produced the KMHMH.

Also, if "hundreds more degrees" wouldn't have mattered, would he notice a 400~700 increase?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Raditz also complimented their defense post his first attack. And he commented on Goku being "tough" when this latter resisted his barrage of attacks and produced the KMHMH.

Considering we've seen how naturally durable Goku is against Oozaru Vegeta and 50% Freeza, as well as how both he and Piccolo were when facing each other 5 years prior, I wouldn't say this proves much in terms of their battle power.

Also, if "hundreds more degrees" wouldn't have mattered, would he notice a 400~700 increase?

Considering he bothered to make note of their amplified attacks despite the difference in the increase essentially being the same as this hypothetical, I don't see why he wouldn't, especially when he bothered to make note of them going from the 300s to the 400s.

 

[SSJ2]

If anything, Raditz's statement coupled with that of him saying how he'd slowly increase his effort after having already blitzed and overpowered them initially cements that the 400 range was where their power stood, as well as go against the idea of them being significantly above that. The 600 or so range you proposed is still a significant increase regardless of it being irrelevant to Raditz, and he'd already took notice of the smaller increase from them taking off their weights.
More importantly, the idea of them having more power to display rests solely on the idea of the gaps being too large, despite it being apparent Toriyama didn't treat battle power gaps or amplification as consistent numerically. Comparisons of destructive feats combined with Kaioken linearly boosting all stats show how relevant a gap is for feats compared to what it is numerically makes that more than apparent.

I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here. I don't think they have to be above the numbers displayed, but I don't see why it can't be possible. When else in the series has someone noted the use of fighting ki vs resting ki? We only learn of the concept when Galu transformed for Trunks, but we've never heard anyone say, "wow, Galu"s strength has doubled since his fighting ki was activated!!". Could be the same thing here.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I don't think they have to be above the numbers displayed, but I don't see why it can't be possible.

The problem is it falls very much into the Flying Spaghetti Monster fallacy due to the lack of note from Raditz despite how quick he was to bring up even comparatively minor changes in battle power and we have an official source outright saying 408 was Piccolo's full power. Because of all that, there's very much a burden of proof necessary when it comes to the idea of arguing against Goku and Piccolo being above the 400 range.

When else in the series has someone noted the use of fighting ki vs resting ki? We only learn of the concept when Galu transformed for Trunks, but we've never heard anyone say, "wow, Galu"s strength has doubled since his fighting ki was activated!!". Could be the same thing here.

It's worth noting though that resting Ki was brought up as a concept only after the characters had further honed their Ki control to greater levels as well as in cases of conserving stamina, whereas Goku and Piccolo were very much going in guns blazing and their Ki control at this point was comparatively basic compared to how it would soon become. This is further made apparent by the scene of Kuririn getting his battle power scanned where the number was read from him just standing around. If this was just his resting Ki, why not focus his Ki further to get a more accurate idea of where he stood in comparison to Piccolo's 329? It seems that resting Ki is very much something more apparent with more accurately honed Ki from the examples in early Z, along with the meta answer of Toriyama having not fleshed out the idea yet.

 

[SSJ2]

1. First of all, what in the fuck is Flying Spaghetti Monster fallacy?

2. You raise a good point about Krillin being measured, but I can counter that. The Saiyan arc is the time that we have direct evidence that the Z Senshi can suppress their powers, with Vegeta telling Nappa that his scouter was useless. Goku should have been equally as skilled when Raditz arrived as the humans were when Nappa/Vegeta arrived. Both had training Kami/Popo by that point in time. It would be strange for Goku to need Kaio's training to unlock that ability when the humans could do it through the same training that Goku had received.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

1. First of all, what in the fuck is Flying Spaghetti Monster fallacy?

It's a term referring to arguments which lack any direct evidence to back them up and instead avoid conceding by relying on a lack of direct contradiction. The name comes from the analogy saying that one can say something as hyperbolic as a Flying Spaghetti Monster can be believed to exist because nobody can directly prove it doesn't, despite their being no evidence supporting it.

The Saiyan arc is the time that we have direct evidence that the Z Senshi can suppress their powers, with Vegeta telling Nappa that his scouter was useless. Goku should have been equally as skilled when Raditz arrived as the humans were when Nappa/Vegeta arrived. Both had training Kami/Popo by that point in time. It would be strange for Goku to need Kaio's training to unlock that ability when the humans could do it through the same training that Goku had received.

There were far different factors in both training though. Kami didn't directly train Goku and left it all to Popo, whereas he personally observed the Earthlings training. Secondly, the Earthlings had already reached a level of Ki control greater than post-Choshinsui Goku from their own training beforehand such as Kuririn learning bukujutsu or Yamcha developing as complex a skill as the Sokidan. Thirdly, the scene with Kuririn points to them not having such a skill prior to the training, otherwise the whole mention of their numbers as measuring sticks and comparisons to Piccolo ultimately become moot.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[The name comes from the analogy saying that one can say something as hyperbolic as a Flying Spaghetti Monster can be believed to exist because nobody can directly prove it doesn't, despite their being no evidence supporting it.

FSM totally exists though. I saw taking it for a walk in my neighborhood last week, it’s probably one of his sex slaves pets.

 

[SSJ2]

It's a term referring to arguments which lack any direct evidence to back them up and instead avoid conceding by relying on a lack of direct contradiction. The name comes from the analogy saying that one can say something as hyperbolic as a Flying Spaghetti Monster can be believed to exist because nobody can directly prove it doesn't, despite their being no evidence supporting it.

Well I don't think anyone is asserting it as fact. I'm just bringing up the possibility of it, not trying to shove the argument down your throat and force you to accept it.

There were far different factors in both training though. Kami didn't directly train Goku and left it all to Popo, whereas he personally observed the Earthlings training. Secondly, the Earthlings had already reached a level of Ki control greater than post-Choshinsui Goku from their own training beforehand such as Kuririn learning bukujutsu or Yamcha developing as complex a skill as the Sokidan. Thirdly, the scene with Kuririn points to them not having such a skill prior to the training, otherwise the whole mention of their numbers as measuring sticks and comparisons to Piccolo ultimately become moot.

It sounds as though Popo was heavily involved in their training:

Furthermore, the humans trained with Kami/Popo for less than a year. Surely having the majority of your training with Popo alone for 3 years wouldn't be so different to what the humans received in < 1. We also see exactly what I'm proposing in the 23rd. Goku took his weights off against Tenshinhan and was still capable of holding back the bulk of his power. So it's not as though he's unable to alter his battle power by this point in the series.. And sure, you can say that the humans started with a greater level of ki control, but they also had far less time. It should balance out.

I don't see why that needs to be the case. The comparison of Krillin/Roshi/Tenshinhan to Goku/Piccolo doesn't really change if Goku is 408 or 608. It's made clear that they are not relevant to that level of power, and that was the intent of measuring them at all.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It sounds as though Popo was heavily involved in their training:
Furthermore, the humans trained with Kami/Popo for less than a year. Surely having the majority of your training with Popo alone for 3 years wouldn't be so different to what the humans received in < 1. We also see exactly what I'm proposing in the 23rd. Goku took his weights off against Tenshinhan and was still capable of holding back the bulk of his power. So it's not as though he's unable to alter his battle power by this point in the series.. And sure, you can say that the humans started with a greater level of ki control, but they also had far less time. It should balance out.

Except we're shown afterwards that the training they received was far more beneficial in general from someone like Yamcha going from more or less post-Choshinsui Goku's level to stronger than Raditz, and I heavily doubt the 6 months of solo training was a major factor in that.
It's also debatable how great Goku's Ki control was when it's apparent Ki sensing wasn't really all that great at the time. Goku didn't seem to get a great grasp on what Raditz was capable of at first despite him not being able to suppress his Ki, after all.

I don't see why that needs to be the case. The comparison of Krillin/Roshi/Tenshinhan to Goku/Piccolo doesn't really change if Goku is 408 or 608. It's made clear that they are not relevant to that level of power, and that was the intent of measuring them at all.

Indeed, but they aren't being compared to a battle power in the 400 or 600 range, but one at 329. It's apparent they can't stack up to it nor would they be able to assume resting Ki is a factor for it to work at all, so there'd really be no reason to assume Goku/Piccolo without weights would be any different a case.

 

[ahill1]

Considering we've seen how naturally durable Goku is against Oozaru Vegeta and 50% Freeza, as well as how both he and Piccolo were when facing each other 5 years prior, I wouldn't say this proves much in terms of their battle power.

Goku's durability comes from his Saiyajins' genes, mostly, so Raditz should be factoring on that.

Considering he bothered to make note of their amplified attacks despite the difference in the increase essentially being the same as this hypothetical, I don't see why he wouldn't, especially when he bothered to make note of them going from the 300s to the 400s.

But that happened when their attack reached near his plateau of power (not so near with the KMHMH, but still). It might be the same or even a lower increase proportionally-wise, but the attack reaching near his level is naturally going to draw more of a reaction. Think maybe of Piccolo not reacting to Vegeta's SSJ post his 1st RoSaT trip but shitting bricks when Vegeta was turning into grade 2, despite the latter being a smaller increase as in comparison to the gap between SSJ Vegeta (post RoSaT) and pre room SSJ Vegeta.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Goku's durability comes from his Saiyajins' genes, mostly, so Raditz should be factoring on that.

Not all Saiyans have equal durability though. The fact Raditz was so injured by Gohan's headbutt makes that apparent. Roshi also stated Goku's durability after his training with Popo had increased the most out of his stats, showing it wasn't purely his genetics factoring it in; and the 23rd TB illustrates this even further with the durability both he and Piccolo had towards each other's strongest attacks.

But that happened when their attack reached near his plateau of power (not so near with the KMHMH, but still). It might be the same or even a lower increase proportionally-wise, but the attack reaching near his level is naturally going to draw more of a reaction. Think maybe of Piccolo not reacting to Vegeta's SSJ post his 1st RoSaT trip but shitting bricks when Vegeta was turning into grade 2, despite the latter being a smaller increase as in comparison to the gap between SSJ Vegeta (post RoSaT) and pre room SSJ Vegeta.

I'm not talking purely about their amplified attacks though, but also the comparatively minimal increase of going from the 300s to the 400s when of absolutely no relevance to himself. If he'd bother to take note of that, there's no reason he wouldn't bother noting a far more relevant hypothetical boost into the 600s or 700s if they were capable of it without amplified techniques.

 

[Hector]

I have Goku/Piccolo at 750 at Raditz Saga.