GOTENKS NEVER ACHIEVED ASCENDED SAIYAN (SS2) ????

[VampireWicked]

Is it required to master a previous Transformation to achieve the next natural form?

I think Yes because the natural trigger for 1st achieving SuperSaiyan & AscendedSaiyan (SS2) is Rage/Anger.

Vegeta, Goku, TeenGohan, KidGoten, KidTrunks, FutureTeen Trunks.

Gotenks was able to Master SuperSaiyan because he is half human child who hasn't experienced major emotional events.

So with the pattern of evidence YES it would make absolute sense that SuperSaiyan FullPowered is needed for the next natural step towards AscendedSaiyan (SS2).

Not including the wacked out logic of Universe 6 Saiyans, Universe 7 Saiyans for the initial achievement of SuperSaiyan requires spontaneous Rage/Anger.

The Daizenshuu 7 says it can be assumed

And even Herms translates there's the possibility Gotenks did have it but it may not look like AscendedSaiyan (SS2).

Super Saiyan 2
A type of warrior who possess power surpassing Super Saiyan 1 in power, speed, and all other points!! However, it seems to not provide a rapid increase, so after Goku awakened to Super Saiyan 3, he would often skip over 2 and transform straight from 1 to 3!! In visual terms as well there’s not all the much different from 1, these differences consisting of the sparks in the aura and the hair on the head standing up even straighter than before!

And the Daizenshuu 7 says Gotenks can but the EX:

We see Gotenks reach both SSJ1 and SSJ3; we have to assume that if he's able to reach SSJ3, there was an SSJ2 in there, somewhere! Daizenshuu # 7 states that Gotenks is indeed able to go SSJ2.

So, while we never actually see Gotenks in SSJ2, it's safe to assume he can reach it.

However i'm believing that's assumption on something not seen in DragonBall Z because he wasn't triggered into AscendedSaiyan (SS2).

The trigger for the initial SuperSaiyan achievement on Namek was rage/anger.
The same requirement was applied for Vegeta, FutureTrunks, & the same was used to trigger Gohan for AscendedSaiyan (SS2) achievement.

SUPER SAIYAN
(Sûpâ Saiyajin; commonly "SSJ" or "SSJ1")


Goku is the first to go through the transformation into a Super Saiyan. It is widely speculated that the Sentô Ryoku ("combat strength," or if you must, "power level") of the character must be around 180,000, which Goku reaches on Namek; this cannot be confirmed or denied, however (it's merely speculation). The transformation into a Super Saiyan is generally caused by an overwhelming sense of rage and hatred.

SuperSaiyan Grade 4 eliminated that overwhelming sense of rage & hatred.

So if the trigger for 1st achieving the Transformation is present, then how else is another Transformation requiring an overwhelming sense of rage & hatred going to be triggered.

You master it & or remove that element of an overwhelming sense of rage & hatred.




Think about what the benefits of SuperSaiyan FullPowered/Mastered are.

Goku decides they must,"... work on getting rid of that instability... that restless feeling." Regular ol' Super Saiyan must become their "norm."

"They look like Super Saiyans... but I don't feel the energy...! It's like... it's their natural state...".

Next chapter, the characters converse among themselves regarding this "new" Goku and Gohan. Tenshinhan is astonished, since it is supposed to take a great deal of effort just to stay in SSJ, yet they are so relaxed.

As SuperSaiyans they are clam & in control of their emotional state, the form feels normal, natural, clam.
And this is what makes me believe Gotenks never reached AscendedSaiyan (SS2).

It was never triggered for him.

It only makes sense that Rage/Anger is needed for the initial achievement of AscendedSaiyan (SS2).

Think about what triggered the initial SuperSaiyan Transformation & AscendedSaiyan (SS2)for Teen Gohan.
If Grade 1 SuperSaiyan is fueled by emotional anger, then how are you going to enrage something that's already angry with little emotional control.


Grade4 regains that control.
This would be like if Goku was SuperSaiyan FullPowered on Namek & then Frieza killed Krillin.

But when was Gotenks ever angered as SuperSaiyan FullPowered ?

Are there any official scans of Gotenks in DragonBall Z ever holding the AscendedSaiyan (SS2) Transformation for more than a few seconds & not while Transforming into SuperSaiyan 3 ?

I am not saying Gotenks can't go AscendedSaiyan (SS2), I'm saying with the amount of time they had available, the required trigger for AscendedSaiyan (SS2), & what was probably a tremendous effort in reaching SuperSaiyan3.
Gotenks didn't have time to get AscendedSaiyan (SS2).

And who would've helped him get angry enough (Goku Namek & Teen Gohan) angry enough to spark the Transformation.





Has Individually KidGoten or KidTrunks ever gone AscendedSaiyan (SS2)?

Why would SuperSaiyan & AscendedSaiyan (SS2) be lumped for them & not anyone else.

And why at that time.

If the Transformations were lumped together then wouldn't that also add to the possibility that Gohan was SuperSaiyan against Dabura.

Also that would just weaken any case that Gotenks has AscendedSaiyan (SS2) when Transforming into SuperSaiyan3 because SuperSaiyan3 has sparks too.

What makes them any different than Teen Gohan/Adult Gohan.

Anything beyond Gohan, Goku, & Majin Vegeta having the AscendedSaiyan (SS2) Transformation is theory or assumption based on their capability of achieving AscendedSaiyan (SS2) which no one is denying that capability.

And anything beyond Gohan is speculation on it was just training that helped them accomplish the form or something while training that ignited an overwhelming sense of rage/hatred that caused the Transformation.

Can you prove with absolute certainty & not through some vague statement that Vegeta, KidGoten, KidTrunks, Gotenks, had achieved the AscendedSaiyan (SS2) in DragonBall Z at that time ?

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I really doubt that Gotenks didn't reach SSjin2 since they followed Goku's instruction clearly where they have to reach SSjin2 first before SSjin3.

 

[VampireWicked]

I really doubt that Gotenks didn't reach SSjin2 since they followed Goku's instruction clearly where they have to reach SSjin2 first before SSjin3.

Was it ever shown Gotenks held the AscendedSaiyan (SS2) Transformation beyond a few pages & not while going into SuperSaiyan3 ?

 

[Papasmurf]

He never used it, but not using isn't the same as not having the form.

 

[Papasmurf]

He never used it, but not using isn't the same as not having the form.

 

[VampireWicked]

He never used it, but not using isn't the same as not having the form.

And it's not the same as having it either.
It's based off an assumption that he had it but only states he is capable of acquiring it.
Like I said to fearless, show where Gotenks held the AscendedSaiyan (SS2) Transformation beyond a few pages & not while going into SuperSaiyan3.

Otherwise in a case like this IF it's not seen then it's an assumption.


I know Gotenks using AscendedSaiyan (SS2) while he has SuperSaiyan3 would be pointless but that isn't what this is about.

From my view this puts things in a better understanding & opens the discussion on natural Transformations.


IF what sparks the initial achievement of SuperSaiyan was the same thing needed to trigger AscendedSaiyan (SS2) but Gotenks/Goku never experienced that trigger for SuperSaiyan3 & Gotenks skips AscendedSaiyan (SS2) altogether in Z.

Then that would support the idea that SuperSaiyan3 is unnatural & forced.

2. Natural Saiyan Transformations has to be mastered or to the point where the Saiyan is calm & in full control of their emotions as if it's a normal state in order to achieve a new next natural Transformation.

3. And there's an 1.existing true SuperSaiyan3 form never achieved before.

4. Unless a Saiyan can completely rid themselves of rage & anger, then the possibility of triggering a new natural Transformation will exist.

Spoiler

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Am I wrong about anger/rage being part of what triggers it?

 

[ahill1]

I think he was SSJ2 for a few panels before turning into a SSJ3. He just didn't stay in it since he knew the SSJ3 power was needed.

 

[VampireWicked]

I think he was SSJ2 for a few panels before turning into a SSJ3. He just didn't stay in it since he knew the SSJ3 power was needed.

As I said on neo, is there anything where Gotenks was & held AscendedSaiyan (SS2) longer than a few manga panels, at least a page worth & not while on his way to SuperSaiyan3?

By all means anyone with solid evidence of Gotenks holding AscendedSaiyan (SS2) & not on his way to SuperSaiyan3 then please prove me wrong.