Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) vs Majin-Vegeta

[Fantastische Hure]

In his regular-state.

Who wins?

 

[Six Trails]

I think Vegeta is stronger. Gotenks could be stronger, but I wouldn't base it off of his "confidence". He very clearly overestimated himself and all of the hype around his power was a set-up for him to come back one panel later all beaten up. Everyone besides Piccolo was also under the impression that not even Goku could beat Fat Boo, so you'd have to have Base Gotenks > SS3 Goku to justify the faulty logic of "he was confident despite knowing Vegeta got stomped". I always found the comparison between the two to be really contrived.

 

[GSM123]

Vegeta gets rick rolled. People actually took Gotenks seriously when he said he could beat Boo...

 

[Ultimate Cell]

I think base Gotenks gets his ass handed to him while SS Gotenks can win.

 

[SSJ2]

Base Gotenks one shots.

 

[Void]

Vegeta beats his ass.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Yeah, I thought Gotenks could maybe win. He was still treated as a big deal, when he actually formed. Granted it wasn't like that meant anything since he did get beaten-up by Boo, but that might actually mean Gotenks > SSJ2 Goku.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

For reasons GSM said, Gotenks stomps. It's also worth noting that Gotenks even finding a way to come back alive from the battle is a very notable feat, even if offscreen.

 

[Diamond Ryan]

Personally I think Gotenks would win fairly easily. I can see arguments for Majin Vegeta winning though.

 

[GSM123]

Personally I think Gotenks would win fairly easily. I can see arguments for Majin Vegeta winning though.

Are there even arguments for Vegeta tho

I mean, people only counter the arguments for Gotenks and never show evidence for Vegeta being stronger. I know the burden of proof is on Gotenks, but still.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Gotenks stomps.

 

[Six Trails]

Are there even arguments for Vegeta tho

I mean, people only counter the arguments for Gotenks and never show evidence for Vegeta being stronger. I know the burden of proof is on Gotenks, but still.

There's no evidence for either. I just go with Vegeta because I think the gap between Base and Super Saiyan is far larger than the one between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

No evidence for either but Daizenshuu implies Vegeta surpassed Pre ROSAT Gotenks. Even if you want to do that, the Anime suggests that Pre ROSAT Gotenks is inferior to even Grey Buu, and it's arguable whether Majin Vegeta is around that level or not, so there's that. It's like GreatSaiyman123 said, the burden of proof is on the Gotenks side, but Vegeta's side is more supported, therefore we go by Vegeta

 

[Captain Cadaver]

No evidence for either but Daizenshuu implies Vegeta surpassed Pre ROSAT Gotenks.

Only very loosely. The wording of the statement makes it sound as if it's talking about Gotenks' power in general rather than his base self, which clearly can't be the case when it's made obvious his SSJ form had power above Fat Boo's. Whilst bringing up the Daizenshuu is never a bad thing, it's also not an absolutely flawless source (eg. Having Piccolo Daimao > BoZ Ten when feats and statements suggest a different picture, or seemingly flip-flopping between which form they believe Gohan was using against Dabura).

Even if you want to do that, the Anime suggests that Pre ROSAT Gotenks is inferior to even Grey Buu, and it's arguable whether Majin Vegeta is around that level or not, so there's that.

Not very though. Good Boo was already putting up as much of, if not better, a fight against Pure Boo than a Vegeta at least as strong as his Majin self did. Even though bringing in battle powers should be considered to be secondary, the maths overall support Pure Evil Boo being far above SS2 tier; it being made apparent three SS2s would have no chance against Fat Boo and Pure Evil Boo receiving over half his power.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

Only very loosely. The wording of the statement makes it sound as if it's talking about Gotenks' power in general rather than his base self, which clearly can't be the case when it's made obvious his SSJ form had power above Fat Boo's.

No. Daizenshuu's statement would specifically imply Ssj Gotenks and not Base form. We are unsure whether this means Ssj3 Gotenks or not, but we can at least infer that it refers to Ssj Gotenks Post ROSAT. Daizenshuu 7 states that Gotenks has had the initiative in his fight against Super Buu, but it doesn't directly specify. We can infer that it refers to more than one:

Spoiler

Daizenshuu says that Gotenks seized the initiative, but directly afterwards, the word "always" is used. "Always" makes it seem that this is not the first time this has happened, which means Gotenks had the initiative on a couple of times. Daizenshuu States 2 examples and states "something" which adds the possibility of more. The only times we saw such initiatives are Ssj Gotenks and Ssj3 Gotenks, both Post ROSAT. In fact, Base Gotenks is out of the question because according to Daizenshuu 2, the fight between Base Gotenks and Super Buu barely lasted anything, and no worthy events are mentioned but Daizenshuu 2 mentions a couple of events from Ssj Gotenks and even states the point where Gotenks blew away Super Buu, but they mess up in which they fail to decimate him, which is a reaffirmation of What Daizenshuu 7 showed.

Spoiler

Daizenshuu 2 also implies that a "grand battle" has unfolded between Ssj Gotenks and Buu, and implies that Gotenks did somewhat good job against him, which is far better than how Vegeta faired. According to Daizenshuu 2, Vegeta apparently didn't even put a dent on Buu and failed to do anything which is the opposite of what Ssj Gotenks managed to do:

Spoiler

It would be pure speculation to say that Daizenshuu refers to Base Gotenks when the entire context is that Gotenks in his Super Saiyan forms was great, while he's regarded as trash as Base form. Base Gotenks Post ROSAT is inferior to Ssj Gotenks Pre ROSAT.

So Saying Daizenshuu refers to Base Gotenks is pure speculation while for Ssj Gotenks, it's supported.

Whilst bringing up the Daizenshuu is never a bad thing, it's also not an absolutely flawless source (eg. Having Piccolo Daimao > BoZ Ten when feats and statements suggest a different picture, or seemingly flip-flopping between which form they believe Gohan was using against Dabura).

That doesn't mean the source is wrong. Just because it has errors, doesn't in anyway mean it's unusable. To say that Daizenshuu is not usable because it has errors, is completely wrong. If Gotenks Pre < Vegeta isn't contradicted, then it stands firm

Not very though. Good Boo was already putting up as much of, if not better, a fight against Pure Boo than a Vegeta at least as strong as his Majin self did.

Vegeta is arguably far stronger than he was when he got controlled by Babidi. Aside from that, using Good Buu vs Kid Buu is a wrong argument because using your logic, Grey Buu > Kid Buu which is obviously wrong, if not abysmally atrocious.

Even though bringing in battle powers should be considered to be secondary, the maths overall support Pure Evil Boo being far above SS2 tier; it being made apparent three SS2s would have no chance against Fat Boo and Pure Evil Boo receiving over half his power.

You have no way of quantifying Vegeta's power in comparison to Good Buu or Grey Buu using power levels so that wouldn't be a reliable argument. The main argument is that Vegeta > Good Buu which is... possible, and Vegeta (Post Vegito fusion) > Grey Buu is a supported argument if we use the claim that Vegeta got stronger after dying due to receiving a Zenkai which makes sense following the chronological order of the show.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Writing Super-Saiyan Gotenks would make it sound stupid I think. Much easier to assume it was just talking about the highest power Gotenks was capable of other-wise it'd sound like the Daizenshuu was written specifically for power-level obsessed people.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

Writing Super-Saiyan Gotenks would make it sound stupid I think. Much easier to assume it was just talking about the highest power Gotenks was capable of other-wise it'd sound like the Daizenshuu was written specifically for power-level obsessed people.

That's pretty much half of Daizenshuu's reason for existence anyways since it consists of mostly power scaling issues :mikey

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Writing Super-Saiyan Gotenks would make it sound stupid I think. Much easier to assume it was just talking about the highest power Gotenks was capable of other-wise it'd sound like the Daizenshuu was written specifically for power-level obsessed people.

That's pretty much half of Daizenshuu's reason for existence anyways since it consists of mostly power scaling issues :mikey

Not really. It's a guide for the whole series, not a power-scaling guide.

 

[CroMagnumDVH]

Not really. It's a guide for the whole series, not a power-scaling guide.

No it's both. It has so much information regarding the power of the characters, as well as some information regarding the plot, which is why DBZ debaters reference it alot as evidence to things that aren't well-clarified in the Manga or Dragon Ball Kai

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Not really. It's a guide for the whole series, not a power-scaling guide.

No it's both. It has so much information regarding the power of the characters, as well as some information regarding the plot, which is why DBZ debaters reference it alot as evidence to things that aren't well-clarified in the Manga or Dragon Ball Kai

That's not because it's a power-level guide, but because DragonBall's a Shounen series which is about power so there's no-way around not talking about power.