- Joined
- Jul 27, 2015
- Messages
- 7,116
- Age
- 28
I constructed this while I was drinking, so you may noticed that the writing at the beginning is significantly better then my writing during the end 
Please note that this isn't the best that I got against Gotenks, but I did have some new things in here that I wasn't aware of beforehand.
Please note that the font might look weird at some parts, because I constructed it on my Dell and transfered it over to my Mac.
Gotenks SSj Pre
The boys were not implied or stated to have increased in battle power after entering the Rosat. Not once. The only logical conclusion for one to determine from this information is that they did not increase in battle power individually. To further build on this logic, Piccolo does not imply or state that he noticed any difference from them after they completed their training. Why is this important? Because the Metamoran fusion requires people to be at the exact same battle power to complete the ritual, as seen here:
(Too lazy to fetch Piccolo saying they have to be at the exact same battle power so Iíll just include that)
However, their stationary battle power (strength on par with one another) is so insignificant that Piccolo doesnít notice a difference. This leads us to two very important conclusions:
a) The Metamoran ritual does NOT scale linearly; aka, it has a multiplier.
b) The boys Post-Rosat are likely at the exact same battle power as they were before entering the Rosat.
From this conclusion -based on viable evidence that does not contradict the Manga and is completely self consistent, I can deduce that Gotenks increased in strength based on how much more perfected the dance had become in comparison to where it was beforehand. Additionally, this also means that Goku was not determining how strong the product of the sum would become based on some ëmultiplierí; the only choice words he used to describe this increase was that two weak guys become a substantial warrior. This is extremely important, because while talking to Piccolo ñafter sensing the full power of the boys, he concludes that this choice option was now considered a gamble; aka, he wasnít certain if it would be enough. This terminology of gamble comes an entire issue after he originally used it to reference time; logically, heís discussing something completely different because time was not implied or mentioned during his talk with Piccolo. Then what did he consider a gamble? Well... as we have determined, the product of the sum because:
a) The multiplier for fusion does not scale linearly, so itís at best an estimate.
b) The kids did not impress him as much as heíd like, but he still considered it the best alternative for them.
Additionally, Goku refers to their options of victory as being achieved ëone way or anotherí (shortly before his fight with Pure Boo):
Because he speaks uncertainly about them winning this heavily suggests that strength was not the only factor that he considered. Why is this? Well... fusion results in many weird abilities that the product of the sum is capable of: Gogetaís star dust breaker, Gotenksís Super Ghost Kamikazeís, so itís like that he was factoring in this trump cards as their route to victory, this is even suggested when Gotenks SSj Post fights against Super Boo, heís capable of matching him to some degree, despite being a whole lot weaker.
So we have established that Goku cannot mathematically determine how strong Gotenks could potentially be and that Goku wasnít entirely certain that they could defeat Innocent Boo by sheer strength alone; so logically, the determination that Gotenks SSj Pre is actually stronger then Innocent Boo isnít true and a fan of the series does not have to view the events of the series that way. People can argue all they want that Goku wouldnít leave the fate of the world up to them because heís... well... Goku, but Goku has done this on two occasions:
a) Once with Kid Gohan, when he provides Cell with a Senzu bean and heals him to full power, despite there being a slight chance that Gohan may never have achieved SSj2 as he intended.
b) Shortly before Goku is about to fight Pure Boo, he wanted the younger generation to save the world because he felt morally irresponsible to have to do it himself due to being dead, as seen here:
People enjoy using the terminology ëincredibleí as being suggestive of that particular battle power as having surpassed everything that came before it. Iíve gathered a few quotes where characters use the same terminology and apply it to something significantly weaker then themselves:
Goku is talking to Gohan, whom Vegeta and himself surpassed by an enormous margin.
Kuririn calls Zarbon and Dodoria incredible, despite Freeza being many folds greater then them. Why not apply the terminology incredible to Freeza? Because being referenced as incredible does not mean youíre greater then everything there is or everything that came beforehand.
Freezaís battle power is over 500,000 but he refers to Nailís battle power as being incredible.
Goku calls Ginyuís battle power incredible, despite being almost 10x stronger then him.
Goku sensed Freezaís battle power and he knows how strong he himself is as a Super Saiyan, but he refers to Piccolo and Vegeta (two guys barely over 2,000,000) as being incredible.
Yes, you can argue semantics all you want ñsuch as saying ëthe key words areí, but at the end of the day, have you honestly convinced yourself that Piccoloís reference towards Gotenks suggests heís greater than anything that came beforehand? If youíre willing to believe that, and then close your browser right now and stop reading. It makes no sense to me to explain something important to someone whose convinced by something they want to believe (which is based on something that can be explained otherwise), as opposed to something logical. Gokuís statement about Gotenks being stronger then himself was based on a false pretence nonetheless, and as the evidence above suggests, Gotenks does not have to be stronger then Innocent Boo or Goku SSj3 if one doesnít believe they were.
Gotenks Post-Rosat
One of the silly things about Gotenks enthusiasts that strikes me as odd is their willingness to accept any and all statements/implications without question. They do not look into the story, they just accept them, regardless of how absurd their notions may be. One particular example is Piccolo.
Majin Boo isnít implied or stated to have decreased in power from when he powered up here:
Yet for some odd reason, Piccolo is unable to acknowledge this and simply adheres to the notion that Gotenks Base Post actually stands a chance, despite an equally powerful Boo ñin comparison to the one in the scan above, standing right in front of him. This tells us that he isnít reliable. If he was, he would have known all along that Gotenks Base Post didnít stand a chance in comparison to the battle power that Boo demonstrated above.
To further build on this logic, Teen Gohan talks about his true power as being capable of managing something against Majin Boo. Again, he said ëmanage somethingí, this implies that heís somewhat doubtful that he can defeat Boo, but maybe... just maybe, he can:
I felt that I had to include this because the terminology ëtrue powerí is always a reference to the maximum battle power output that a fighter is capable of.
Goku refers to Kid Gohan SSj2 as being Gohanís true power.
So now that we have covered the ground points, letís look towards Gohan and Goku and their references towards Gohanís ëtrue powerí. These three quotes are extremely important in debunking Piccolo as an accurate Ki sensor:
The reference towards Gohanís ëtrue powerí is a reference towards his battle power during the Cell Games, but even if he brings this out he only thinks that heís capable of doing something against him, but he doesnít suggest or imply that he could single handily defeat him:
Now this bring us towards Majin Vegeta SSj2 and how he views Innocent Booís battle power:
Cough*, heís completely uncertain and cannot accurately read battle powers so much greater then his own, only in the sense of making a comparison between levels of that particular threshold. So really, Piccolo wasnít able to accurately gauge Super Boo and Gotenks Base Post, the only thing he was able to determine was that Gotenks got better, but if he was a reliable Ki sensor then he SHOULD have known immediately that Super Boo was stronger all along, he doesnít; likewise he doesnít know whether or not Majin Vegeta is actually stronger then Kid Gohan, despite Majin Vegeta feeling as though he is on an entirely different level then Innocent Boo, whom Teen Gohanís true power (Kid Gohan) was only capable of managing something against.
Now we have determined that Gotenks Base Post > SSj Pre isnít true and it does not have to be; likewise Gotenks SSj Pre > Goku SSj3 > Innocent Boo is not true and it does not have to be. Now Ií not saying that Gotenks isnít stronger then Goku as a whole, and Iím not saying that I think he is, but I am saying that he doesnít have to be if someone believes as such.
I will include common counters and counter-arguments below, please revise them before trying to construct your own argument.
I hope you enjoyed the read!
Counter Arguments
Please note that this isn't the best that I got against Gotenks, but I did have some new things in here that I wasn't aware of beforehand.
Please note that the font might look weird at some parts, because I constructed it on my Dell and transfered it over to my Mac.
Gotenks SSj Pre
The boys were not implied or stated to have increased in battle power after entering the Rosat. Not once. The only logical conclusion for one to determine from this information is that they did not increase in battle power individually. To further build on this logic, Piccolo does not imply or state that he noticed any difference from them after they completed their training. Why is this important? Because the Metamoran fusion requires people to be at the exact same battle power to complete the ritual, as seen here:
(Too lazy to fetch Piccolo saying they have to be at the exact same battle power so Iíll just include that)
However, their stationary battle power (strength on par with one another) is so insignificant that Piccolo doesnít notice a difference. This leads us to two very important conclusions:
a) The Metamoran ritual does NOT scale linearly; aka, it has a multiplier.
b) The boys Post-Rosat are likely at the exact same battle power as they were before entering the Rosat.
From this conclusion -based on viable evidence that does not contradict the Manga and is completely self consistent, I can deduce that Gotenks increased in strength based on how much more perfected the dance had become in comparison to where it was beforehand. Additionally, this also means that Goku was not determining how strong the product of the sum would become based on some ëmultiplierí; the only choice words he used to describe this increase was that two weak guys become a substantial warrior. This is extremely important, because while talking to Piccolo ñafter sensing the full power of the boys, he concludes that this choice option was now considered a gamble; aka, he wasnít certain if it would be enough. This terminology of gamble comes an entire issue after he originally used it to reference time; logically, heís discussing something completely different because time was not implied or mentioned during his talk with Piccolo. Then what did he consider a gamble? Well... as we have determined, the product of the sum because:
a) The multiplier for fusion does not scale linearly, so itís at best an estimate.
b) The kids did not impress him as much as heíd like, but he still considered it the best alternative for them.
Additionally, Goku refers to their options of victory as being achieved ëone way or anotherí (shortly before his fight with Pure Boo):
Because he speaks uncertainly about them winning this heavily suggests that strength was not the only factor that he considered. Why is this? Well... fusion results in many weird abilities that the product of the sum is capable of: Gogetaís star dust breaker, Gotenksís Super Ghost Kamikazeís, so itís like that he was factoring in this trump cards as their route to victory, this is even suggested when Gotenks SSj Post fights against Super Boo, heís capable of matching him to some degree, despite being a whole lot weaker.
So we have established that Goku cannot mathematically determine how strong Gotenks could potentially be and that Goku wasnít entirely certain that they could defeat Innocent Boo by sheer strength alone; so logically, the determination that Gotenks SSj Pre is actually stronger then Innocent Boo isnít true and a fan of the series does not have to view the events of the series that way. People can argue all they want that Goku wouldnít leave the fate of the world up to them because heís... well... Goku, but Goku has done this on two occasions:
a) Once with Kid Gohan, when he provides Cell with a Senzu bean and heals him to full power, despite there being a slight chance that Gohan may never have achieved SSj2 as he intended.
b) Shortly before Goku is about to fight Pure Boo, he wanted the younger generation to save the world because he felt morally irresponsible to have to do it himself due to being dead, as seen here:
People enjoy using the terminology ëincredibleí as being suggestive of that particular battle power as having surpassed everything that came before it. Iíve gathered a few quotes where characters use the same terminology and apply it to something significantly weaker then themselves:
Goku is talking to Gohan, whom Vegeta and himself surpassed by an enormous margin.
Gohan and Piccolo imply, that Gokuís Ki is incredible, despite it only being at 5,000 and Vegeta and Nappa (Presumably), being a whole lot greater.
Kuririn calls Zarbon and Dodoria incredible, despite Freeza being many folds greater then them. Why not apply the terminology incredible to Freeza? Because being referenced as incredible does not mean youíre greater then everything there is or everything that came beforehand.
Freezaís battle power is over 500,000 but he refers to Nailís battle power as being incredible.
Goku calls Ginyuís battle power incredible, despite being almost 10x stronger then him.
Goku sensed Freezaís battle power and he knows how strong he himself is as a Super Saiyan, but he refers to Piccolo and Vegeta (two guys barely over 2,000,000) as being incredible.
Yes, you can argue semantics all you want ñsuch as saying ëthe key words areí, but at the end of the day, have you honestly convinced yourself that Piccoloís reference towards Gotenks suggests heís greater than anything that came beforehand? If youíre willing to believe that, and then close your browser right now and stop reading. It makes no sense to me to explain something important to someone whose convinced by something they want to believe (which is based on something that can be explained otherwise), as opposed to something logical. Gokuís statement about Gotenks being stronger then himself was based on a false pretence nonetheless, and as the evidence above suggests, Gotenks does not have to be stronger then Innocent Boo or Goku SSj3 if one doesnít believe they were.
Gotenks Post-Rosat
One of the silly things about Gotenks enthusiasts that strikes me as odd is their willingness to accept any and all statements/implications without question. They do not look into the story, they just accept them, regardless of how absurd their notions may be. One particular example is Piccolo.
Majin Boo isnít implied or stated to have decreased in power from when he powered up here:
Yet for some odd reason, Piccolo is unable to acknowledge this and simply adheres to the notion that Gotenks Base Post actually stands a chance, despite an equally powerful Boo ñin comparison to the one in the scan above, standing right in front of him. This tells us that he isnít reliable. If he was, he would have known all along that Gotenks Base Post didnít stand a chance in comparison to the battle power that Boo demonstrated above.
To further build on this logic, Teen Gohan talks about his true power as being capable of managing something against Majin Boo. Again, he said ëmanage somethingí, this implies that heís somewhat doubtful that he can defeat Boo, but maybe... just maybe, he can:
I felt that I had to include this because the terminology ëtrue powerí is always a reference to the maximum battle power output that a fighter is capable of.
Goku refers to Kid Gohan SSj2 as being Gohanís true power.
So now that we have covered the ground points, letís look towards Gohan and Goku and their references towards Gohanís ëtrue powerí. These three quotes are extremely important in debunking Piccolo as an accurate Ki sensor:
The reference towards Gohanís ëtrue powerí is a reference towards his battle power during the Cell Games, but even if he brings this out he only thinks that heís capable of doing something against him, but he doesnít suggest or imply that he could single handily defeat him:
Now this bring us towards Majin Vegeta SSj2 and how he views Innocent Booís battle power:
Oh! So Innocent Booís battle power is essentially a dust compared to Majin Vegeta and Goku SSj2? Now, letís view Piccoloís estimate:
Cough*, heís completely uncertain and cannot accurately read battle powers so much greater then his own, only in the sense of making a comparison between levels of that particular threshold. So really, Piccolo wasnít able to accurately gauge Super Boo and Gotenks Base Post, the only thing he was able to determine was that Gotenks got better, but if he was a reliable Ki sensor then he SHOULD have known immediately that Super Boo was stronger all along, he doesnít; likewise he doesnít know whether or not Majin Vegeta is actually stronger then Kid Gohan, despite Majin Vegeta feeling as though he is on an entirely different level then Innocent Boo, whom Teen Gohanís true power (Kid Gohan) was only capable of managing something against.
Now we have determined that Gotenks Base Post > SSj Pre isnít true and it does not have to be; likewise Gotenks SSj Pre > Goku SSj3 > Innocent Boo is not true and it does not have to be. Now Ií not saying that Gotenks isnít stronger then Goku as a whole, and Iím not saying that I think he is, but I am saying that he doesnít have to be if someone believes as such.
I will include common counters and counter-arguments below, please revise them before trying to construct your own argument.
I hope you enjoyed the read!
Counter Arguments
Argument
a) Gotenks Base Pre-RoSaT survived Majin Boo, Vegeta didn't; therefore he has to be around Super Saiyan 2 power.
Counter-Argument
There are countless scenarios where a weaker fighter survives a stronger fighter, but it doesn't mean they are stronger than anybody else. Some examples include Hercule fighting Perfect Cell & Kid Boo. Vegeta in his Ssj2 & Base form being mercilessly assaulted by Kid Boo -who is not known to hold back power. Kaioshin surviving Boo. Surviving a fight doesn't account for anything.
Argument
b) Gotenks says Gotenks' will defeat Majin Boo and it isn't contradicted.
Counter-Argument
Goku made the statement prior to being able to accurately gauge the strength of the boys. Therefore it's not an accurate power statement and is contradicted when he isn't even certain if what they're showing them is their full power.
Argument
c) Goku didn't think they needed the RoSaT
Counter-Argument
Actually, within the context of the statement Goku only says 'no' to using it for the sole purpose of speeding up the time it will take to learn the fusion. He later says 'they might need it later'. This also contradicts the notion that Gotenks' strength wasn't contradicted and debunks the notion that he didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.
Argument
d) Goku isn't an idiot, he wouldn't risk the entire Universe unless he was certain the boys could win.
Counter-Argument
Gotenks was remarked as being able to win 'one way or another', this doesn't have to include battle power as Goku has seen the fusion before and knows it likely yields some weird powers.
Additionally, Piccolo says the same thing to Gotenks about both Boo's: that he needs to 'train and train' in preparation for both fights. The statement isn't contradicted in either situation, therefore it's true until contradicted.
Also, Goku figured they would learn to fuse quickly, which would give them the remainder of the time to focus on training, and if need be, they could use the RoSaT. So no, Goku isn't an idiot, but it doesn't mean Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT would be strong enough to defeat Majin Boo without the benefits of training, because Goku wasn't certain if he would be or not.
Argument
e) Piccolo only question Gotenks' speed, not his power.
Counter-Argument
My analysis in another topic proves that speed doesn't correlate with strength in linear progression. Hence why Piccolo was testing him. Gotenks was foolish enough to believe so, but this is completely false. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku on Namek, but he was much slower. Because speed & strength can differ so greatly from one another, it makes it impossible to judge a characters power based solely on speed alone.
Argument
f) Goku says Gotenks will be stronger than him and it isn't contradicted.
Counter-Argument
Note: Goku actually never told Boo this (apparently he's gone senile in the afterlife).
Argument:
g) Goku is stupid and a serial killer because he let 10% of the Earth die.
Counter-Argument:
Piccolo was willing to let Super Boo annihilate the entire population (7 Billion people, or the remaining 90%) for the sole purpose of giving Gotenks a chance to close the gap.
Goku knows they still have the Dragon Balls and previously told Gohan during the Cell Games not to worry about whatever damage he does because it can all be reversed with the Dragon Balls.
After Kid Boo appeared, Goku was teleported to the World Of The Kais and he says:
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
Goku is willing to make the sacrifice to give Gotenks a chance to succeed, because all the damage can later be undone.
Argument:
Goku didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.
Counter-Argument:
Actually, if you look at the context of the statement:
So finally, Goku isn't 100% certain if Gotenks, even as a Super Saiyan, would become strong enough. The RoSaT was a back-up plan just in case he wasn't. This also debunks pretty much all the Gotenks Pre-RoSaT arguments.
Argument
a) Fusion doesn't scale linearly.
Counter-Argument
This particular argument uses the quote from Piccolo that says 'even if you get just a little stronger, it will be more effective when you perform fusion'. All this means is 'Goten + 1 / Trunks + 1 = Gotenks +n 2'.
Therefore 'Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Ssj Pre' is hereby disproven. Additionally, Piccolo started to build hope based off how perfectly the boys performed the fusion dance and built his expectations off of a 'not fully powered' Gotenks.
Fusion does scale linearly. There is no evidence to suggest it doesn't. This argument is a desperate cop-out to make the 'Base Post > Ssj Pre' theory work. It's both a numeric impossibility and a logical fallacy due to having no evidence to substantiate the claim.
P.S.
For the people who actually believe that fusion doesn't scale linearly, than you are creating a paradox and a big hole in your logic by believing Goku can sense the Metamoran individuals and their fused product and determine what Gotenks Ssj Pre will be.
Your logic collapses in on itself.
Argument:
Piccolo didn't doubt Gotenks' when he said he could finish Boo.
Counter-Argument:
Piccolo didn't have the time to contradict Gotenks' whom flew off almost immediately. Piccolo resorts to trying to stop him because of the amount of time they have left and they would ultimately defuse and then Earth's only hope would be killed off. However, don't make the mistake of thinking that's the same as Piccolo not doubting their strength. He never had the time to vocalize his doubts and even with what he was able to say to himself, the safety of the individuals was clearly more paramount.
Argument: Piccolo let them sleep after seeing Gotenks Super Saiyan, this means he thinks the fusion is strong enough.
Counter-Argument: Piccolo let the boys sleep prior to even merging successfully for the first time, and they only had 1 day left to learn the fusion. This argument is bullshit.
Argument: How can Gotenks be weaker than Boo as a Super Saiyan?
Counter-Argument: After Kibito & Kaioshin merged with the Potara, their strength wasn't even considered on par with Vegeta Ssj2; yet Kaioshin alone was considered a dimension above Piccolo, and because the Potara has greater affect than the Metamoran fusion, this makes it a mathematical impossibility for Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT to actually surpass Fat Boo.
a) Gotenks Base Pre-RoSaT survived Majin Boo, Vegeta didn't; therefore he has to be around Super Saiyan 2 power.
Counter-Argument
There are countless scenarios where a weaker fighter survives a stronger fighter, but it doesn't mean they are stronger than anybody else. Some examples include Hercule fighting Perfect Cell & Kid Boo. Vegeta in his Ssj2 & Base form being mercilessly assaulted by Kid Boo -who is not known to hold back power. Kaioshin surviving Boo. Surviving a fight doesn't account for anything.
Argument
b) Gotenks says Gotenks' will defeat Majin Boo and it isn't contradicted.
Counter-Argument
Goku made the statement prior to being able to accurately gauge the strength of the boys. Therefore it's not an accurate power statement and is contradicted when he isn't even certain if what they're showing them is their full power.
Argument
c) Goku didn't think they needed the RoSaT
Counter-Argument
Actually, within the context of the statement Goku only says 'no' to using it for the sole purpose of speeding up the time it will take to learn the fusion. He later says 'they might need it later'. This also contradicts the notion that Gotenks' strength wasn't contradicted and debunks the notion that he didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.
Argument
d) Goku isn't an idiot, he wouldn't risk the entire Universe unless he was certain the boys could win.
Counter-Argument
Gotenks was remarked as being able to win 'one way or another', this doesn't have to include battle power as Goku has seen the fusion before and knows it likely yields some weird powers.
Additionally, Piccolo says the same thing to Gotenks about both Boo's: that he needs to 'train and train' in preparation for both fights. The statement isn't contradicted in either situation, therefore it's true until contradicted.
Also, Goku figured they would learn to fuse quickly, which would give them the remainder of the time to focus on training, and if need be, they could use the RoSaT. So no, Goku isn't an idiot, but it doesn't mean Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT would be strong enough to defeat Majin Boo without the benefits of training, because Goku wasn't certain if he would be or not.
Argument
e) Piccolo only question Gotenks' speed, not his power.
Counter-Argument
My analysis in another topic proves that speed doesn't correlate with strength in linear progression. Hence why Piccolo was testing him. Gotenks was foolish enough to believe so, but this is completely false. Ginyu was 33% stronger than Goku on Namek, but he was much slower. Because speed & strength can differ so greatly from one another, it makes it impossible to judge a characters power based solely on speed alone.
Argument
f) Goku says Gotenks will be stronger than him and it isn't contradicted.
Counter-Argument
The entire point of telling Majin Boo that was buy time for the boys to learn the fusion. It wasn't meant to be taken as an actual fact. Then there is this:
Note: Goku actually never told Boo this (apparently he's gone senile in the afterlife).
Argument:
g) Goku is stupid and a serial killer because he let 10% of the Earth die.
Counter-Argument:
Piccolo was willing to let Super Boo annihilate the entire population (7 Billion people, or the remaining 90%) for the sole purpose of giving Gotenks a chance to close the gap.
Goku knows they still have the Dragon Balls and previously told Gohan during the Cell Games not to worry about whatever damage he does because it can all be reversed with the Dragon Balls.
After Kid Boo appeared, Goku was teleported to the World Of The Kais and he says:
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
Goku is willing to make the sacrifice to give Gotenks a chance to succeed, because all the damage can later be undone.
Argument:
Goku didn't intend for them to use the RoSaT.
Counter-Argument:
Actually, if you look at the context of the statement:
Goku wasn't saying that the boys didn't need the RoSaT because the fusion on it's own would be strong enough to defeat Boo, he was neglecting in using it as a means for the boys to learn the Metamoran quicker, which would waste time. He than blatantly says 'They might NEED IT LATER' because they are going to learn to fuse quickly.
So finally, Goku isn't 100% certain if Gotenks, even as a Super Saiyan, would become strong enough. The RoSaT was a back-up plan just in case he wasn't. This also debunks pretty much all the Gotenks Pre-RoSaT arguments.
Argument
a) Fusion doesn't scale linearly.
Counter-Argument
This particular argument uses the quote from Piccolo that says 'even if you get just a little stronger, it will be more effective when you perform fusion'. All this means is 'Goten + 1 / Trunks + 1 = Gotenks +n 2'.
Therefore 'Gotenks Base Post > Gotenks Ssj Pre' is hereby disproven. Additionally, Piccolo started to build hope based off how perfectly the boys performed the fusion dance and built his expectations off of a 'not fully powered' Gotenks.
Fusion does scale linearly. There is no evidence to suggest it doesn't. This argument is a desperate cop-out to make the 'Base Post > Ssj Pre' theory work. It's both a numeric impossibility and a logical fallacy due to having no evidence to substantiate the claim.
P.S.
For the people who actually believe that fusion doesn't scale linearly, than you are creating a paradox and a big hole in your logic by believing Goku can sense the Metamoran individuals and their fused product and determine what Gotenks Ssj Pre will be.
Your logic collapses in on itself.
Argument:
Piccolo didn't doubt Gotenks' when he said he could finish Boo.
Counter-Argument:
Piccolo didn't have the time to contradict Gotenks' whom flew off almost immediately. Piccolo resorts to trying to stop him because of the amount of time they have left and they would ultimately defuse and then Earth's only hope would be killed off. However, don't make the mistake of thinking that's the same as Piccolo not doubting their strength. He never had the time to vocalize his doubts and even with what he was able to say to himself, the safety of the individuals was clearly more paramount.
Argument: Piccolo let them sleep after seeing Gotenks Super Saiyan, this means he thinks the fusion is strong enough.
Counter-Argument: Piccolo let the boys sleep prior to even merging successfully for the first time, and they only had 1 day left to learn the fusion. This argument is bullshit.
Argument: How can Gotenks be weaker than Boo as a Super Saiyan?
Counter-Argument: After Kibito & Kaioshin merged with the Potara, their strength wasn't even considered on par with Vegeta Ssj2; yet Kaioshin alone was considered a dimension above Piccolo, and because the Potara has greater affect than the Metamoran fusion, this makes it a mathematical impossibility for Gotenks Ssj Pre-RoSaT to actually surpass Fat Boo.
Argument: Gotenks Base Post-RoSaT surpassed his previous SSj level
Counter Argument: Actually no. For Goku to make any sort of estimate about the kids Pre-RoSaT, Fusion has to scale linearly or his argument is merely an opinion and not an actual fact. Additionally, for this argument to work, the boys would have to surpass their previous Super Saiyan level as well; this obviously did not happen.
Argument: Piccolo hoped for a miracle and Gotenks didn't let up.
Counter Argument: Because Gotenks Base Post-RoSaT didn't surpass his previous power as a Super Saiyan (see point above), this also means that Piccolo was simply jumping to conclusions. If we pay attention to the artwork, Piccolo begins to celebrate at how well the boys performed the fusion dance, and he continues this train of thought until Gotenks actually fights; a result of which makes him immediately retract his previous statement, and Majin Boo is not shown to power up.
Argument: Piccolo doubted Gotenks Ssj Pre's Power but not Gotenks Base Post
Counter Argument: See the first two points above.
Argument: Piccolo said 'even Gotenks there couldn't beat you', this has to mean he's stronger than anybody who came before-hand.
Counter Argument: Incorrect. All this statement means is that Piccolo believes Gotenks is the last hope alive (Goku is gone, Vegeta is dead & Gohan is believed dead).
Argument: Gotenks is stronger than Super Boo
Counter-Argument: Super Boo remarks himself as the strongest prior to Gohan's arrival. He hears that Gotenks's fusion only lasts for so long. As soon as he senses Gohan's Chi he begins to orchestrate the plan to absorb Gotenks. Because Super Boo's statement comes 'after' the feats in their battle, than it contradicts what originally happened. Remember: Toriyama makes the story up as he goes along.
Argument: Gotenks has to have Super Saiyan 2.
Counter-Argument: Actually no. Goku already demonstrated Super Saiyan 1-3 against the Fat Majin Boo and Goten was watching this entire demonstration. Goten is also the one who says: 'I can't believe there is something beyond Super Saiyan', and Trunks doesn't contradict his statement. This means they went from Super Saiyan 1 right to Super Saiyan 3.
Argument: Gotenks had sparks in one panel, that means he was Super Saiyan 2!
Counter-Argument: Vegetto had sparks when he transformed into Super Saiyan. Nappa had sparks when he powered up. These 'sparks' can simply be the result of Gotenks transforming into Super Saiyan 3; which is essentially what he's doing.
Argument: Even if Gotenks doesn't have Super Saiyan 2 he still get's the boost.
Counter-Argument: The hell?
Counter Argument: Actually no. For Goku to make any sort of estimate about the kids Pre-RoSaT, Fusion has to scale linearly or his argument is merely an opinion and not an actual fact. Additionally, for this argument to work, the boys would have to surpass their previous Super Saiyan level as well; this obviously did not happen.
Argument: Piccolo hoped for a miracle and Gotenks didn't let up.
Counter Argument: Because Gotenks Base Post-RoSaT didn't surpass his previous power as a Super Saiyan (see point above), this also means that Piccolo was simply jumping to conclusions. If we pay attention to the artwork, Piccolo begins to celebrate at how well the boys performed the fusion dance, and he continues this train of thought until Gotenks actually fights; a result of which makes him immediately retract his previous statement, and Majin Boo is not shown to power up.
Argument: Piccolo doubted Gotenks Ssj Pre's Power but not Gotenks Base Post
Counter Argument: See the first two points above.
Argument: Piccolo said 'even Gotenks there couldn't beat you', this has to mean he's stronger than anybody who came before-hand.
Counter Argument: Incorrect. All this statement means is that Piccolo believes Gotenks is the last hope alive (Goku is gone, Vegeta is dead & Gohan is believed dead).
Argument: Gotenks is stronger than Super Boo
Counter-Argument: Super Boo remarks himself as the strongest prior to Gohan's arrival. He hears that Gotenks's fusion only lasts for so long. As soon as he senses Gohan's Chi he begins to orchestrate the plan to absorb Gotenks. Because Super Boo's statement comes 'after' the feats in their battle, than it contradicts what originally happened. Remember: Toriyama makes the story up as he goes along.
Argument: Gotenks has to have Super Saiyan 2.
Counter-Argument: Actually no. Goku already demonstrated Super Saiyan 1-3 against the Fat Majin Boo and Goten was watching this entire demonstration. Goten is also the one who says: 'I can't believe there is something beyond Super Saiyan', and Trunks doesn't contradict his statement. This means they went from Super Saiyan 1 right to Super Saiyan 3.
Argument: Gotenks had sparks in one panel, that means he was Super Saiyan 2!
Counter-Argument: Vegetto had sparks when he transformed into Super Saiyan. Nappa had sparks when he powered up. These 'sparks' can simply be the result of Gotenks transforming into Super Saiyan 3; which is essentially what he's doing.
Argument: Even if Gotenks doesn't have Super Saiyan 2 he still get's the boost.
Counter-Argument: The hell?
Toriyama states that both Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 derive from the original Super Saiyan transformation. This also means that SSj 3 doesn't derive from SSj2. Therefore you don't need it to acquire SSj3, you just need the base product, SSj. Think of it like building blocks. You start off with 1 block (SSj), and than you go to SSj2 and suddenly you have 2 blocks. Next you go to SSj3 and you have 8 blocks. Whereas if you jump from SSj to SSj3, you only wind up with 4 blocks. Same principal here.
