GT Freeza Respect Thread

Southern Gothic

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- Freeza's first appearance in GT takes plae during episode 42 of the series only a few minutes before the closing credits, after operation "Seal Up Goku" is set into motion. Having been dead for many years, Freeza is confined to Hell, where he chooses to stay and remain behind in order to exact is revenge against Son Goku, a plan that involves Freeza, Cell, Dr. Mu and Dr. Gero together.

Key Statements

Context: After mocking Goku's claim to having improved. Freeza raises his energy.

Cell: "You'd better not think that your the only one who has powered up."

Context: Goku proceeds to raise his energy. Freeza and Cell are shocked initially, but then immediately laugh it off. They are not impressed. Note that while Freeza can't read ki, Cell does have this ability.

Freeza: "Making light of us as usual. You are indeed Son Goku."

Cell: "It looks like we might be able to enjoy ourselves for the first time in a while."

The Fight (Freeza only)

- After all three of them power up. Cell and Freeza charge Goku.

-Freeza lands the first hit, spamming ki blasts. Goku is sown to exert at least some effort upon blocking the the attack. Moments later we do see Goku with no damage.

- Freeza's next move is a Kienzan, which Goku easily dodges (surfs).

-Another Kienzan, after Cell goes down. Goku catches this one, sort of, while still surfing the first Kienzan. He throws it back, cutting Freeza in half.

-Freeza is not only the last to "die" during the initial conflict, but he lasts a total of 17 seconds longer than Cell. Worth a mention.

- After returning to life, Freeza charges Goku again. He throws several blurred punches (8-10 total). All of these punches miss, as Goku avoids them completely. However, it is possible that the punches were little more than a ruse. Immediately after, Freeza is shown to be a decoy for a double team move involving Cell's Taiyoken and absorption.

-In total, Freeza takes part in three separate plans that initially succeed in capturing Goku: The operation with Mu and Gero, the Taiyoken and absorption, as well as the Hell's Buster, a move which ultimately ends the first fight. Points for being the most intelligent version of Freeza ever put on screen.
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Techniques

Kienzan: Energy disk, aka Destructo Disk, different from his formally pinkish disk attack. The only change seems to be the yellow color, as Goku even goes so far as to refer to it as "Kururin's technique". Due to the minor details, this should be listed as an exact replica of the Kienzan or DD, and not as the slightly different move Freeza used on Namek.

Ki Spam: Frieza uses a generic, one handed Ki spam attack against Goku. The energy balls are red, and sent out rapidly against Goku.

Immortality: Freeza cannot die in Hell. He and Cell are specifically stated to be "immortal" while there. After being sliced in half, Freeza returns whole and intact only seconds later. It is unknown whether he regenerates or immediately takes the form of a whole new body, as the action occurs offscreen.

Hell's Buster:
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Ki attack used to trap an opponent and drag them to the deepest parts of Hell, where they are subjected to Hell's Pilgrimage, AKA The Four Stages of Enma's Torture (Soup Bath, Tickling, Boiling Sauna, Freezing Tundra). When used by Cell and Freeza in tandem, it was powerful enough to keep Base Goku from escaping.

Theories Concerning Freeza's Battle Power

Operation Seal Up Goku involved trapping Goku in Hell against two formidable foes while an army of former antagonists escape and run rampant on Earth. It is unlikely that two opponents would be chosen to stand off against Goku if they were considerably weaker than anyone who abandoned Hell to reek havoc in the real world. In other words, Freeza and Cell may be the best available options, possibly alluding to them having surpassed the other occupants of Hell. There are a couple of hints that back this up.

First, we have Cell and Freeza's confidence. They were stated to have improved during their time in Hell. That's several years of training, and it should be considered fact that they trained as a pair, confirmed when Cell says they developed the Hell's Buster "together". Consider the gains made by other DBZ characters under less favorable conditions.

Couple the above with the information that Freeza and Cell had access too. The last villain to go in and out of Hell, viewed by the audience, is General Rild. Given ideal conditions, which I believe exist due to the presence of Dr. Mu in Hell, Freeza should be aware of the appropriate battle power he needs to surpass. To simplify, Freeza should know that Rild (Sigmas absorbed) failed against SSJ Goku on M2. Under this logic, Freeza has every reason to be informed of Rild's (Sigmas) power and at least equal that.

I am using Hyper Rild minimum. That would have been the goal, and in a team with Cell, it should have easily gone down with a defeat of Goku, if they were weighing his power against the fight against Rild on M2. I also do not want to go too far out there with Freeza. He got stomped by Base Goku, plain and simple, and any further would put him into some territory where at least a few hits should have ended up leaving some damage, superficial or otherwise. That didn't happen. Instead, Freeza's planning, along with the others, proved way more effective than any show of brute force.

Final Analysis: Freeza>Hyper Rild. I am favoring a 33% gap at the moment, based of my own findings, and adding to that the input of some other members, with Cell far surpassing that, making them an effective duo against a hypothetical SSJ Goku M2.
 

Southern Gothic

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Not really a respect thread. I just set it up that way, since it was the only format I could figure. This is more about about collecting my personal notes and thoughts on thesubject of GT Freeza.

While criticism is welcome, I did write this for me, and my opinion is certainly peppered in at a few points.
 

Pyro

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For the last bit, isn't it possible Goku simply powered up between Baby and S17? It would seem that way since a lot of people go with SSj Goku > SSj2 Vegeta at that point when it certainly wasn't the case during the Baby Saga.
 

Southern Gothic

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Pyrus said:
For the last bit, isn't it possible Goku simply powered up between Baby and S17? It would seem that way since a lot of people go with SSj Goku > SSj2 Vegeta at that point when it certainly wasn't the case during the Baby Saga.
Absolutely. I didn't mean to contradict that anywhere and tried to keep that in mind as I wrote it. I think the whole conflict with Baby powered Goku up, which is why the Freeza and Cell battle was such a stomp. In base form Goku had to at least stay on guard against Rild.

Which part are you looking at?
 

Pyro

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I have settled on a battle power equal to Rild (Sigmas) for a reason. That would have been the goal, and in a team with Cell, it should have easily gone down with a defeat of Goku, if they were weighing his power against the fight against Rild on M2. I also do not want to go too far out there with Freeza. He got stomped by Base Goku, plain and simple, and any further would put him into some territory where at least a few hits should have ended up leaving some damage, superficial or otherwise. That didn't happen. Instead, Freeza's planning, along with the others, proved way more effective than any show of brute force.
That part. I thought you were putting a cap on Base Goku's strength relative to how strong he was against Rild.
 

Southern Gothic

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Pyrus said:
I have settled on a battle power equal to Rild (Sigmas) for a reason. That would have been the goal, and in a team with Cell, it should have easily gone down with a defeat of Goku, if they were weighing his power against the fight against Rild on M2. I also do not want to go too far out there with Freeza. He got stomped by Base Goku, plain and simple, and any further would put him into some territory where at least a few hits should have ended up leaving some damage, superficial or otherwise. That didn't happen. Instead, Freeza's planning, along with the others, proved way more effective than any show of brute force.
That part. I thought you were putting a cap on Base Goku's strength relative to how strong he was against Rild.
I am basing that on Goku's M2 strength. That is my cap because that would have been the last direct information Freeza and Cell had on Goku. Both Rild and Dr. Mu were direct witnesses to that, and they would have likely passed that along. So the cap is based on outdated information, if you will. They think Goku is M2 strength. After that, I don't think they had any idea, since Mu didn't have anything on SSJ4.

Should that be reworded? I am open to doing some cleaning on the thread. This is the first time I've tried a legit Dragon Ball theory. So I picked something I liked, and small scale so to speak. I'm sure I could use a little peer analysis.
 

Pyro

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Just to clarify, you don't think Freeza should be higher than Rild because if he was, his hits would've done more damage to Goku?
 

Southern Gothic

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Pyrus said:
Just to clarify, you don't think Freeza should be higher than Rild because if he was, his hits would've done more damage to Goku?
Not on his own. I think Cell maintains a healthy gap over Freeze, from the idea that a gap already existed, as well as a few snide comments from Cell that sort of make me see him as the "alpha male". Pushing Freeza past Rild then in turn pushes Cell even more, and that's where I think the double team would have at least done something worthwhile to a Base Goku in Hell.

Edit: I'm sure a slight lead of Rild is acceptable. I'm more comfortable with Freeza right there and Cell being the one to surpass Rild. Although like a said, a slight nudge wouldn't bother me, which is why I put the >=.
 

Six Trails

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Well, Base Goku in the S17 arc is much stronger than the Goku on M2.

General Rild: 9
Hyper Mega Rild: 15

Goku (M2): 10
-SS: 25
-SS2: 37.5
-SS3: 112.5

Vegeta-Baby: 135
-SVB1: 202.5
-SVB2: 607.5

<small>[GTPF implies Vegeta-Baby's transformations are similar to SS transformations.]</small>

Vegeta (S17): 162
-SS2: 607.5

Goku (S17): 162

<small>[This is assuming they're equal, though it's more likely Goku was stronger.]</small>

So with Base Goku potentially being 18x stronger than Base Rild, or 10x stronger than Hyper Mega Rild, there's plenty of room to fit in Cell and Freeza, and still keep a large gap between them.
 

Southern Gothic

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Is that Base Goku you have listed at 162 for the S17 arc?
 

Southern Gothic

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For the moment, I settled on a 33% increase because of some commentary by you and Pyrus. There is a fair case to be made for some added power, so I bumped him up by 1/3, since I see no harm being done. Thank you all for the imput too. I appreciate the fine arts of polishing a turd.
 

Six Trails

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I usually put Freeza 1.5x Rild, and Cell 1.5x Freeza, personally. I'm fine with your gap, though.
 

Southern Gothic

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SSJ Vegetto said:
I usually put Freeza 1.5x Rild, and Cell 1.5x Freeza, personally. I'm fine with your gap, though.
At the moment, my gap is larger for Cell over Freeza, which might explain my slight reluctance there. I feel a good compromise has been reached for now.
:et
 

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I am fine with your 33% gap there, although I also wouldn't mind Freeza being 33% stronger than final form Rild. Either way, great topic.
 

Classic Adamas

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Not much 4 me to say on the content of this thread, but I do respect GT Freeza. I like Freeza in very small, non-golden doses. :troll2
 

ahill1

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Mike said:
Well, Base Goku in the S17 arc is much stronger than the Goku on M2.

General Rild: 9
Hyper Mega Rild: 15

Goku (M2): 10
-SS: 25
-SS2: 37.5
-SS3: 112.5

Vegeta-Baby: 135
-SVB1: 202.5
-SVB2: 607.5

<small>[GTPF implies Vegeta-Baby's transformations are similar to SS transformations.]</small>

Vegeta (S17): 162
-SS2: 607.5

Goku (S17): 162

<small>[This is assuming they're equal, though it's more likely Goku was stronger.]</small>

So with Base Goku potentially being 18x stronger than Base Rild, or 10x stronger than Hyper Mega Rild, there's plenty of room to fit in Cell and Freeza, and still keep a large gap between them.
Why is Vegeta base (S17) stronger than Vegeta-Baby base?
 

Six Trails

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That's how it scales with GT multipliers. Although, alternatively, something like this could work:

General Rild: 9
Hyper Mega Rild: 15

Goku (M2): 10
-SS: 25
-SS2: 31.25
-SS3: 62.5

Vegeta-Baby: 75
-SVB1: 93.75
-SVB2: 187.5

Vegeta (S17): 60
-SS2: 187.5

Either way, Rild is fodder to Base Vegeta and by extension Base Goku.
 

ahill1

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Mike said:
That's how it scales with GT multipliers. Although, alternatively, something like this could work:

General Rild: 9
Hyper Mega Rild: 15

Goku (M2): 10
-SS: 25
-SS2: 31.25
-SS3: 62.5

Vegeta-Baby: 75
-SVB1: 93.75
-SVB2: 187.5

Vegeta (S17): 60
-SS2: 187.5

Either way, Rild is fodder to Base Vegeta and by extension Base Goku.
Why is Vegeta SSJ2 (S17) equal to SVB2?
 
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