GT SSJ Goku vs SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)

[supercat]

@Spiral-Force

I guess my only doubt regarding the multiplier reduction is that such a change taking place was never actually stated. The best we have is that battle between Goku and Rild; and even that is shrouded with ambiguity, as far as actual numbers go. I brought up the fact that Goku could amplify his base power because I felt that perhaps that may have been why his transformations don't grant the 50x boost. I'm thinking he may have found a way to use his power more efficiently by using a larger amount of it in base form, thereby reducing the need to go SSJ. In any case, I'm not really a fan of the whole 50x multiplier thing. I feel it's kind of rigid when it comes to power scaling.

As far as GT Base Goku's power goes, I guess much of it depends on just how powerful GT Uub started off. Assuming he started off at Kid Buu-tier, 5 years or so of training should at least place him closer to the likes of Buutenks or Buuhan if not already above them. This would also lean towards Base Goku > All forms of Buu. So even on the low end, with a 2-3x multiplier that would at least push SSJ Goku somewhat close to SSJ Vegetto, while going SSJ3 would push him far beyond that.

Goku's hesitation to fight Super Buu was odd in the anime, but I've always deciphered that as both he and Vegeta underestimating Kid Buu. This is sort of referenced when Goku comments Buu on his power after the battle starts. It was almost as if he was surprised. By that point his Saiyan urge to challenge a powerful foe probably took the best of him to ask for Vegeta's help, which would explain why he was willing to continue the battle solo. I agree Kid Buu was hyped, but for me personally, it's just hard to see Super Buu > Kid Buu. Even in the manga, the only thing that really supports Super Buu > Kid Buu is how Goku's hesitated to challenge Super Buu while both he and Vegeta were more than ready to go at it with Kid Buu. Again, I like to look at that as underestimating Kid Buu. But hard to tell really.

As far as Super Goku goes, the guy definitely surpassed any level of SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga). Though with the ritual powers absorbed this isn't surprising at all.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Vegetto stomps. Whilst logically Goku should win due to Base Goku (M2) > Base Rild > Gohan Boo > Base Vegetto, backed up by Base GT Gohan > Ultimate Gohan being made apparent through the GT Perfect Files stating Gohan continued his training, the narrative would imply Vegetto wasn't surpassed until Super Vegeta-Baby, since if he were, it would make far more sense for Goku to make the statement of "the greatest Ki I've ever sensed" against Rild or Base Vegeta-Baby. If you give Vegetto a 50x multiplier, it's pretty easy to fit things together. As for Anime Pure Boo's implied power, it's most likely his power got retconned to his manga self's.

Even in the manga, the only thing that really supports Super Buu > Kid Buu is how Goku's hesitated to challenge Super Buu while both he and Vegeta were more than ready to go at it with Kid Buu. Again, I like to look at that as underestimating Kid Buu. But hard to tell really.

- Goku states SSJ Gotenks would surpass him and this is never contradicted.
- It's made pretty apparent that SS3 Goku could wipe out Pure Boo with a full power attack, something that neither Vegeta nor Goku refute later on, whereas Goku makes it abundantly clear he stands no chance against Evil Boo.
- Goku is absolutely blown away by how powerful Gohan got from partially releasing his potential, despite it having yet to come up to Evil Boo's level and already being aware Gohan's latent power would allow him to easily surpass his own peak.
- Evil Boo gets in a panic over the removal of Fat Boo, stating he'll lose all that he is. Doubt he'd care about a loss of intelligence if it resulted in greater power.

Manga-wise, Evil Boo > Pure Boo is pretty undeniable. Don't know why you'd find there to be nothing to support it when overall, there seems nothing to support the opposite.

 

[SSJ2]

As in BoGT Goku? Here are my figures from 2016.

SSJ Vegetto: 800,000

BoGT SSJ Goku: 2500

Spoiler

 

[Spiral-Force]

To clarify, the "GT SSJ Goku" that supercat is talking about is the Baby Arc version of him.

I guess my only doubt regarding the multiplier reduction is that such a change taking place was never actually stated. The best we have is that battle between Goku and Rild; and even that is shrouded with ambiguity, as far as actual numbers go. I brought up the fact that Goku could amplify his base power because I felt that perhaps that may have been why his transformations don't grant the 50x boost. I'm thinking he may have found a way to use his power more efficiently by using a larger amount of it in base form, thereby reducing the need to go SSJ. In any case, I'm not really a fan of the whole 50x multiplier thing. I feel it's kind of rigid when it comes to power scaling.

It would be exaggeration to say that Rilldo's inference on Goku's power change was shrouded with ambiguity. He may have not stated the actual boost, but his words were clear enough to decipher the boundary of the Super Saiyan boost is around 2-3x.

Episode 19
Context: Rilldo senses Goku's ki after Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan
Rilldo: “Up to now, you haven't been putting out half of your power.”

Since Rilldo didn't allude to Goku using much less than half of his power before, it's needless to assume so just for the sake of it. Your amplified base form idea just seems fuelled by subjectivity. What I'm going by is influenced by actual dialogue within the story, yet you're more willing to follow what isn't supported, even though the first line of your paragraph suggests that statements are what impact what you conform to. There's an incompatibility with your logic.

As far as GT Base Goku's power goes, I guess much of it depends on just how powerful GT Uub started off. Assuming he started off at Kid Buu-tier, 5 years or so of training should at least place him closer to the likes of Buutenks or Buuhan if not already above them. This would also lean towards Base Goku > All forms of Buu. So even on the low end, with a 2-3x multiplier that would at least push SSJ Goku somewhat close to SSJ Vegetto, while going SSJ3 would push him far beyond that.

Why would that push SSJ Goku to SSJ Vegito level? This restriction you place on Vegito's power is uncalled for, and doesn't fall in-line with the statement that Baby made that implied Super Baby Vegeta 1 > Super Saiyan Vegito > Base Baby Vegeta. Multipliers should fit what the story conveys, not merely what we wish.

Goku's hesitation to fight Super Buu was odd in the anime, but I've always deciphered that as both he and Vegeta underestimating Kid Buu. This is sort of referenced when Goku comments Buu on his power after the battle starts. It was almost as if he was surprised. By that point his Saiyan urge to challenge a powerful foe probably took the best of him to ask for Vegeta's help, which would explain why he was willing to continue the battle solo. I agree Kid Buu was hyped, but for me personally, it's just hard to see Super Buu > Kid Buu. Even in the manga, the only thing that really supports Super Buu > Kid Buu is how Goku's hesitated to challenge Super Buu while both he and Vegeta were more than ready to go at it with Kid Buu. Again, I like to look at that as underestimating Kid Buu. But hard to tell really.

Goku never retracted the inferiority he expressed in regard to Super Buu, unlike in Fat Buu's case. Also, Goku said Gotenks was stronger than him, and that it wouldn't be fair to use Potara fusion against Kid Buu despite having no qualms about using it to fight Super Buu. Goku may have taken Kid Buu lightly at first, but he was still capable of wiping him out with his full power. Nothing from the manga pointed to Kid Buu > Super Buu. With the anime, I can see why one would switch the rankings between them, but it's still shaky at best due to conflicting segments. For example, Gohan put up a better fight against Buutenks than SSJ3 Goku did, but inside of Buu's body, Base/SSJ Goku could hold his own against the Ultimate Gohan clone, even though the clone was stated to have the same power as the original. There's also the Piccolo clone holding his own against SSJ Vegeta, and managing to critically damage the SSJ3 Gotenks clone with a Makankōsappō. And of course, the contrast between SSJ2 Goku's seperate fights with Kid Buu and Super Buu that makes the Kid Buu (initial) > All Buus statement look paradoxical. In the end though, Kid Buu's ranking doesn't really effect SSJ Vegito's ranking, as the following quote was never contradicted:

As far as Super Goku goes, the guy definitely surpassed any level of SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga). Though with the ritual powers absorbed this isn't surprising at all.

Indeed. Super isn't the focus here though. Let's stick to Z/GT.

 

[supercat]

Vegetto stomps. Whilst logically Goku should win due to Base Goku (M2) > Base Rild > Gohan Boo > Base Vegetto, backed up by Base GT Gohan > Ultimate Gohan being made apparent through the GT Perfect Files stating Gohan continued his training, the narrative would imply Vegetto wasn't surpassed until Super Vegeta-Baby, since if he were, it would make far more sense for Goku to make the statement of "the greatest Ki I've ever sensed" against Rild or Base Vegeta-Baby. If you give Vegetto a 50x multiplier, it's pretty easy to fit things together. As for Anime Pure Boo's implied power, it's most likely his power got retconned to his manga self's.

Even in the manga, the only thing that really supports Super Buu > Kid Buu is how Goku's hesitated to challenge Super Buu while both he and Vegeta were more than ready to go at it with Kid Buu. Again, I like to look at that as underestimating Kid Buu. But hard to tell really.

- Goku states SSJ Gotenks would surpass him and this is never contradicted.
- It's made pretty apparent that SS3 Goku could wipe out Pure Boo with a full power attack, something that neither Vegeta nor Goku refute later on, whereas Goku makes it abundantly clear he stands no chance against Evil Boo.
- Goku is absolutely blown away by how powerful Gohan got from partially releasing his potential, despite it having yet to come up to Evil Boo's level and already being aware Gohan's latent power would allow him to easily surpass his own peak.
- Evil Boo gets in a panic over the removal of Fat Boo, stating he'll lose all that he is. Doubt he'd care about a loss of intelligence if it resulted in greater power.

Manga-wise, Evil Boo > Pure Boo is pretty undeniable. Don't know why you'd find there to be nothing to support it when overall, there seems nothing to support the opposite.

Well the manga is one thing, but in the anime, there were a few statements that strongly imply Kid Buu > Super Buu. I've always interpreted Goku's reaction to Ultimate Gohan briefly powering up moreso as a gesture of surprise; I mean Base Gohan seemingly started off at a level weaker than Frieza (Namek saga), so feeling the sheer increase he gained through Elder Kai's power up would be impressive to say the least.

In the anime, we have very little feats and/or statements that place SSJ3 Gotenks over SSJ3 Goku, much less SSJ Gotenks over SSJ3 Goku. Gotenks did nothing in the anime to suggest that he was over SSJ3 Goku. I mean I guess he did pretty well against Super Buu, someone Goku had little confidence in challenging; but aside from that, we don't have much that supports SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku or vice versa.

In regards to GT power scales, I feel the anime is more relevant. I've always been under the impression that GT follows that continuity.

 

[Papasmurf]

Lol. Are people still on that Kid Boo >> Super Boo bullcrap? The only thing that backs that up is some obscure guidebook entry calling Kid Boo "powered up" and the anime being retarded, Kid Boo is clearly on Goku's level if not weaker similar to CSSJB Galu being slightly above Merged Zamasu in power but weaker overall due to the latter's regen, while Super Boo would kill Goku and Vegeta easily as stated. This idiocy was refuted in like 2004.

 

[Southern Gothic]

Anime Kid Boo >>> Super Boo is only supported by filler anyway. Take that away and I don't see much of and argument being left to make besides what Kenshi said, and that's dubious at best.

 

[Papasmurf]

Yeah and filler is hardly good evidence of anything, if Yamcha getting haxed enough gains to mollywhoop Olibu in like the 50 minutes he was dead is of any indication

 

[Papasmurf]

Also, the extremely incoherent Boo arc anime scaling got contradicted by GT's writers anyway, with several interviews and guidebook entries calling Gohan >> SSJ3 Goku or the SSJ3 form in general. The only place SSJ3 Goku >> Gohan has is in filthy peasantry like M13 or BoG.

 

[Pyro]

Manga-wise, you also have the guidebooks flatout stating hybrids have more potential than pure-bloods, and Elder Kaioshin's ritual hits that and much more, so obviously Gohan (past natural limits) >>> Goku can be deduced simply from that.

I don't think GT follows the anime outline either. The anime's powerscale is completely out of whack. SSJ3 Goku was shitting himself and was never on the offensive against Gotenks-Boo, yet stated Kid Boo was the strongest Majin of them all and they fought evenly. Contradiction. After Goku and Vegeta got inside Boo, they fought exact duplicates of Gohan and Gotenks (stated by Goku and D7), and beat them both were it not for their unlimited regeneration. Super Boo then came into his own mind and beat the both of them with relative ease (only points he had trouble with were when the pods were threatened); he even would've outright killed Goku at the end of the sequence until Vegeta intervened. Contradiction.

How do you place GT Goku when the Z anime can't decide where he is in the first place?

 

[supercat]

@Spiral-Force

What I meant was, without an actual number explicitly stated, the actual power Goku (or any character for that matter) gains via any transformation is debatable.

Actually the whole amplified base speculation supports the reduced SSJ multiplier. Perhaps I didn't word it clearly enough; Goku found a way to utilize more power in base form, thereby lowering the boost granted by his transformations. Meaning, he no longer gains 50x boost since his base form got so darn powerful. You don't have to adhere to it, but all I'm saying is, that would be the only logical explanation behind the 50x boost being reduced to a mere 2-3x. I mean how else would you logically explain such a decrease from an in-universe standpoint, without resorting to a hypothetical retcon.

Do you believe Uub upon first meeting Goku had the power of Kid Buu? If so, wouldn't five years of training push Uub way beyond that? Closer to the likes of Buutenks / Buuhan, if not even stronger? And wouldn't that in-turn mean Base Goku (GT) is also somewhere in that vicinity of power since he was able to contend with Uub in his mere base form?

So now assuming Base Goku (GT) starts off with a power comparable to Buuhan. Wouldn't tacking on a 2-3x increase make him somewhat close to SSJ Vegetto? I mean exactly how powerful do you even have SSJ Vegetto compared to Buuhan? I saw it as a 2-3x at most 4.5x gap.

The Kid Buu / Super Buu argument is pretty debatable as well. I acknowledge the fact that Kid Buu is a joke in the manga, but the anime's statements seem to indicate otherwise. And no, I was never implying that Kid Buu was anywhere near Vegetto. All I meant was, since Uub presumably started off with the power of Kid Buu, it's pretty likely that five years of training pushed him far beyond it; likely on par with Buuhan.

Well yeah, of course Super is a completely different discussion here. But I'm using it as a reference to show huge power jumps and surpassing once respected, and deemed insurmountable calibers aren't unheard of.

 

[Spiral-Force]

What I meant was, without an actual number explicitly stated, the actual power Goku (or any character for that matter) gains via any transformation is debatable.

The specific number is debatable, but the scope of the number hardly is, in this case.

Actually the whole amplified base speculation supports the reduced SSJ multiplier. Perhaps I didn't word it clearly enough; Goku found a way to utilize more power in base form, thereby lowering the boost granted by his transformations. Meaning, he no longer gains 50x boost since his base form got so darn powerful. You don't have to adhere to it, but all I'm saying is, that would be the only logical explanation behind the 50x boost being reduced to a mere 2-3x. I mean how else would you logically explain such a decrease from an in-universe standpoint, without resorting to a hypothetical retcon.

I understood what you meant. What I meant by it not being supported is that the idea wasn't at all described in the story. I think there wasn't that much thought put into the multiplier transition, so I wouldn't bother formulating in-universe explanations for it. Pan never achieved Super Saiyan, yet she managed to partially keep up with Base Goku in their adventures, so I doubt there's an intricate reason for Base Goku's power jump.

Do you believe Uub upon first meeting Goku had the power of Kid Buu? If so, wouldn't five years of training push Uub way beyond that? Closer to the likes of Buutenks / Buuhan, if not even stronger? And wouldn't that in-turn mean Base Goku (GT) is also somewhere in that vicinity of power since he was able to contend with Uub in his mere base form?

So now assuming Base Goku (GT) starts off with a power comparable to Buuhan. Wouldn't tacking on a 2-3x increase make him somewhat close to SSJ Vegetto? I mean exactly how powerful do you even have SSJ Vegetto compared to Buuhan? I saw it as a 2-3x at most 4.5x gap.

Goku had an extensive increase between the beginning of the series and the planet M2 portion of the series. Giru provided fighting data/footage of pre-M2 Goku and co., such as the battle with Luud and the battle with Ledgic (which both included Goku going Super Saiyan), yet the individual Sigma Force members were still confident that they could beat him.

When M2 Goku began to get serious, it didn't take him long to finish them off. With that said, via scaling, Uub from the beginning of GT would be quite inferior to Buutenks/Buuhan, as he was on par with a Goku that hadn't yet reached anywhere near top tier Buu level in normal form, unlike his M2 self who exceeds all of the Buus via scaling from his own statement.

Manga-wise, I have roughly a 2-3x gap between Buuhan/SSJ Vegito. Anime-wise, around a 13-14x gap to make sense of Vegito's relevancy in power to pre-Oozaru Baby.

The Kid Buu / Super Buu argument is pretty debatable as well. I acknowledge the fact that Kid Buu is a joke in the manga, but the anime's statements seem to indicate otherwise. And no, I was never implying that Kid Buu was anywhere near Vegetto. All I meant was, since Uub presumably started off with the power of Kid Buu, it's pretty likely that five years of training pushed him far beyond it; likely on par with Buuhan.

I showed the Vegito > Kid Buu (haxed) statement to illustrate that Vegito isn't restrained from being bumped up some tiers anime-wise. I disagree on the post-5 years Uub part (addressed this above).

Well yeah, of course Super is a completely different discussion here. But I'm using it as a reference to show huge power jumps and surpassing once respected, and deemed insurmountable calibers aren't unheard of.

That's not unheard of even in GT, as Golden Oozaru Baby and SSJ4 Goku would make SSJ Vegito look like a weakling, let alone the likes of Syn Shenron and beyond.

 

[supercat]

Well not utilizing even half, could point towards only using a quarter of his power.

Even if we disregard the specifics behind Goku's reduced multipliers, I feel it's safe to assume that the reduction is a byproduct of a stronger base or something akin to that matter.

How far apart do you feel anime Kid Buu is from Buutenks and Buuhan? I feel a 2-3x difference in power seems reasonable. Why would Goku at the start of GT fall short of the top contenders from the Buu saga? This is five years after Goku was proven superior to Uub, who at that time was strongly implied to be Kid Buu-tier. Assuming anime Kid Buu is 2-3x weaker than Buutenks and Buuhan, it seems rather unlikely that both Goku and Uub didn't reach said levels after five years of training.

Seeing as how rapidly Goku progressed from the start of GT to his battles on M2, I would find it kind of odd if he couldn't even double or triple his power after training five years with a training partner of Uub's caliber.

Assuming SSJ Vegetto really is 14x stronger than Buuhan, Goku's SSJ3 should either be right on par or even a little above it no? His base form on M2 was at least stronger than Buuhan; and if SSJ is a 3x boost, SSJ3 has to be at least a 15x boost right?

 

[SSJ2]

Oh, Baby arc Goku..

Vegetto: 800k

Base Goku: 76,800
SSJ: 192,000

The result is the same.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Well not utilizing even half, could point towards only using a quarter of his power.

If Goku was only using a quarter at first, then Rilldo ought to have just said that instead. It wouldn't have made his comment longer.

Even if we disregard the specifics behind Goku's reduced multipliers, I feel it's safe to assume that the reduction is a byproduct of a stronger base or something akin to that matter.

To each his own. As far as I'm concerned, I'm still sceptical about the intentionality, from an official perspective.

How far apart do you feel anime Kid Buu is from Buutenks and Buuhan? I feel a 2-3x difference in power seems reasonable. Why would Goku at the start of GT fall short of the top contenders from the Buu saga? This is five years after Goku was proven superior to Uub, who at that time was strongly implied to be Kid Buu-tier. Assuming anime Kid Buu is 2-3x weaker than Buutenks and Buuhan, it seems rather unlikely that both Goku and Uub didn't reach said levels after five years of training.

Seeing as how rapidly Goku progressed from the start of GT to his battles on M2, I would find it kind of odd if he couldn't even double or triple his power after training five years with a training partner of Uub's caliber.

Training for multiple years doesn't always result in plentiful gains. Goku trained for 7 years in a row in Other World, where his stamina was much higher than usual, yet his base/Super Saiyan 1 power wasn't evidenced to be double or triple what it was from the Cell Games. After Goku/Uub emerged from the RoSaT to mark the completion of their training, none of the dialogue featured a comparison between Uub and the Majins, and as we saw from Goku's comment on Rilldo's power, surpassing all of the Buus is a noteworthy achievement for an M2 Base Goku tier, which is >>>> BoGT Base Goku tier. As for Uub's actual training, it wasn't solely for increasing strength, it was also to make him proficient in controlling the output of his upper levels of power, and to make him able to fly, so his training can still be perceived as quite fruitful without huge power gains involved. Due to the implications of Base Gotenks (post) > SSJ Gotenks (pre) > SSJ3 Goku (Buu Arc), my gap between Kid Buu & Buutenks/Buuhan is much larger than 2-3x.

Assuming SSJ Vegetto really is 14x stronger than Buuhan, Goku's SSJ3 should either be right on par or even a little above it no? His base form on M2 was at least stronger than Buuhan; and if SSJ is a 3x boost, SSJ3 has to be at least a 15x boost right?

SSJ3 Goku falls notably short of SSJ Vegito from my calcs.

 

[supercat]

It sounds like our disconnect primarily stems from the huge difference we have in the gaps between Kid Buu, Buutenks, and Buuhan.

Well even if Rild's remark didn't explicitly support Goku obtaining anything beyond a 3x increase by going SSJ, I feel Goku tripling his power is a tad more reasonable than merely doubling it. The transformations have to have some level of impact. I mean, if all he experiences is a mere 2x increase, why bother transforming? He could have gotten that through Kaioken. Heck, anything short of a 20x increase sounds kind of odd since Kaioken does just that; granted, he does end up taking some damage in return.

I don't know about Uub making such minuscule progress; especially when he had a teacher like Goku presumably guiding him through the training process. Sure, we could assume that a decent of chunk of the time was allocated towards better control and what not, but falling short of even doubling his power seems kind of downplayed.

 

[Spiral-Force]

It sounds like our disconnect primarily stems from the huge difference we have in the gaps between Kid Buu, Buutenks, and Buuhan.

Well even if Rild's remark didn't explicitly support Goku obtaining anything beyond a 3x increase by going SSJ, I feel Goku tripling his power is a tad more reasonable than merely doubling it. The transformations have to have some level of impact. I mean, if all he experiences is a mere 2x increase, why bother transforming? He could have gotten that through Kaioken. Heck, anything short of a 20x increase sounds kind of odd since Kaioken does just that; granted, he does end up taking some damage in return.

At equal multipliers, Super Saiyan would be the better option than Kaioken for Goku, due to him training SSJ to have minimal energy waste. As for higher levels of Kaioken, perhaps Goku thought it would put too much stress on his child body, like what he experienced when he went Super Saiyan 3 against Base Baby. Nonetheless, a 2-3x increase still has high value, depending on the situation. For example, Saiyan Arc: Vegeta was more than twice as strong as Goku, yet he was getting thrashed when Goku used Kaioken x3. Imagine how much more of an advantage Goku would have held with that boost if they started off with equal base stats.

I don't know about Uub making such minuscule progress; especially when he had a teacher like Goku presumably guiding him through the training process. Sure, we could assume that a decent of chunk of the time was allocated towards better control and what not, but falling short of even doubling his power seems kind of downplayed.

I think Uub got significantly stronger during those years, but I don't entertain the idea of him getting insane gains or whatnot, because such wasn't highlighted, or necessary for the plot at the time. After episode 1, Uub wasn't relevant to the narrative until the Baby Arc, where he attempted to avenge Goku's defeat to Baby. Also, it's indicated by Goku that he didn't go all-out during their training until the final part of it.

 

[Super Saiyan Overlord1007]

Lol. Are people still on that Kid Boo >> Super Boo bullcrap?

Actually yeah, you can see this on YouTube fairly often still. Most people I see believe this are those who watched the anime rather than read the manga. Heck I met a guy who straight up believes the manga is non-canon and wasn't done by Toriyama and believes the anime to be the true canon.