Hehe... Nappa's Power Level

[kriss-]

Akira Toriyama

In my works, “guys who seem like they ought to be strong are actually weak”
“guys who seem like they ought to be strong are actually weak.” ……Like Nappa. (laughs)

Nappa could not have been strong if he was comparable to Goku.

Argument: Nappa was able to fight evenly with Goku's Base form
Counter: Nappa didn't land a single hit. Whereas Goku was mocking him.

Argument: The Z-Fighters stood no chance.
Counter: Nappa's arm was turned numb by Gohan's Masenko of 2,800. He was briefly immobilized from an attack from Piccolo. (or Krillen, I can't remember which) He wasn't able to one shot Piccolo with an off-guard attack. None of the above happens during Nappa's brief bout' with Goku. Logically, he's closer in power to the Z-Fighters than he is to Goku. In addition, the Z-Fighters fared much better against Nappa than Nappa against Goku.

Argument: Nappa expected Goku's 5,000 PL to be a minimum.
Counter: Vegeta expected that. Nappa on the other-hand continually under-estimates the Z-Fighters. He was warned beforehand about their PL's increasing as far back as the Radditz Arc, but he never listened.

Argument: Goku said the fight would take all day. Goku & Nappa must be closer in power.
Counter: Goku said that under the knowledge of not knowing that Nappa had just performed his best attack. It was in that moment that Vegeta calls Nappa down because he knows he's finished if the fight continues.

Argument: Nappa was able to stale-mate Goku in a beam struggle.
Counter: With an uncharged Kamehameha that was shot point blank.

Additionally, Goku calls Nappa a 'tough' bastard, which is him calling Nappa durable. It's not the same as calling him powerful.

Nappa
-Arrival 3,000
-Powered Up 3,600
-Calm 4,500
-Mouth Blast 6,000

Goku
-Arrival 5,000
-Powered Up 8,000

Piccolo
-Full Power 2,400
-Special Beam Cannon 3,500 (Unseen)

Gohan
-Full Power 1,600
-Masenko 2,800

 

[Zippy]

Goku couldn't hit him either for the brief scuffle they had. Judging by his facial expression it wasn't an easy one. Or one where he was completely in control in either.

Can't tell if the At quote is the joke or not with the " " face that follows it but... If you take a look at everyone around him at that time one would think with a quick glance nappa is the strongest but in reality he isn't, like AT said. I don't see why it necessarily has to reference his BP seemingly being Goku's level Or not.

Also you think a blast at 6,000 which is only 75% of or 1.33x weaker than goku couldv'e done some serious damage to him?

 

[kriss-]

Goku couldn't hit him either for the brief scuffle they had. Judging by his facial expression it wasn't an easy one. Or one where he was completely in control in either.

Can't tell if the At quote is the joke or not with the " " face that follows it but... If you take a look at everyone around him at that time one would think with a quick glance nappa is the strongest but in reality he isn't, like AT said. I don't see why it necessarily has to reference his BP seemingly being Goku's level Or not.

Also you think a blast at 6,000 which is only 75% of or 1.33x weaker than goku couldv'e done some serious damage to him?

Goku arrives to the battlefield with a PL of 5,000. His power level increases a bit but he's nowhere near full power, and he's able to tool Nappa on 3 separate occasions. In one occasions his facial expression looks rather pissed off, so if you want to base it off that, I guess Goku's Base Power was 5,000 and not 8,000.

After-wards, Goku does a power up to 8,000, but the artwork includes written sounds, and a relaxed Goku, as though he let the energy disperse and only did it to show his buffs.

The whole point about Toriyama's quote above is not to suggest whose the strongest there, it's about depicting big guys who are weak. If Nappa was strong, he would be comparable to Goku's Base form the entire time and not only during a 3 seconds bout.

Additionally, Chi AMP's vary all the time throughout Dragonball Z. The 1.33x figure is not a principal and nobody has to follow it.

Goku called Nappa a 'tough' bastard, which means he thinks he's durable, but that's not the same as being powerful.

 

[Zippy]

Goku couldn't hit him either for the brief scuffle they had. Judging by his facial expression it wasn't an easy one. Or one where he was completely in control in either.

Can't tell if the At quote is the joke or not with the " " face that follows it but... If you take a look at everyone around him at that time one would think with a quick glance nappa is the strongest but in reality he isn't, like AT said. I don't see why it necessarily has to reference his BP seemingly being Goku's level Or not.

Also you think a blast at 6,000 which is only 75% of or 1.33x weaker than goku couldv'e done some serious damage to him?

Goku arrives to the battlefield with a PL of 5,000. His power level increases a bit but he's nowhere near full power, and he's able to tool Nappa on 3 separate occasions. In one occasions his facial expression looks rather pissed off, so if you want to base it off that, I guess Goku's Base Power was 5,000 and not 8,000.

After-wards, Goku does a power up to 8,000, but the artwork includes written sounds, and a relaxed Goku, as though he let the energy disperse and only did it to show his buffs.

The whole point about Toriyama's quote above is not to suggest whose the strongest there, it's about depicting big guys who are weak. If Nappa was strong, he would be comparable to Goku's Base form the entire time and not only during a 3 seconds bout.

Additionally, Chi AMP's vary all the time throughout Dragonball Z. The 1.33x figure is not a principal and nobody has to follow it.

Goku called Nappa a 'tough' bastard, which means he thinks he's durable, but that's not the same as being powerful.

Are you implying goku powered down again? That doesn't work for me. There isnt a possible time later on where he couldve been hinted to power back up against vegeta.

In those 3 seconds of scuffle goku did however admit he was doing much better than before which seperates that occasion from the other three.

I still have a different perspective for the quote. You see goku vegeta and nappa lined up side by side. Just visually who would you think is the strongest?

1.33x is about the same gap as goku's kkx4 kamehameha and Vegeta's galick gun. Those are ki attacks from the same arc yet look at how much damage and a lead the kamehameha would pull with the same gap.

Its the same as vegeta and recoome as well. Infact there are many one sided possibilities with that gap in the series. Why do you think this would be an exception?

Durable or not when it came to close combat strength is a big factor as well.

 

[Papasmurf]

His power is over 9000. He was just shocked that Goku's power was equal to his

 

[kriss-]

Goku couldn't hit him either for the brief scuffle they had. Judging by his facial expression it wasn't an easy one. Or one where he was completely in control in either.

Can't tell if the At quote is the joke or not with the " " face that follows it but... If you take a look at everyone around him at that time one would think with a quick glance nappa is the strongest but in reality he isn't, like AT said. I don't see why it necessarily has to reference his BP seemingly being Goku's level Or not.

Also you think a blast at 6,000 which is only 75% of or 1.33x weaker than goku couldv'e done some serious damage to him?

Goku arrives to the battlefield with a PL of 5,000. His power level increases a bit but he's nowhere near full power, and he's able to tool Nappa on 3 separate occasions. In one occasions his facial expression looks rather pissed off, so if you want to base it off that, I guess Goku's Base Power was 5,000 and not 8,000.

After-wards, Goku does a power up to 8,000, but the artwork includes written sounds, and a relaxed Goku, as though he let the energy disperse and only did it to show his buffs.

The whole point about Toriyama's quote above is not to suggest whose the strongest there, it's about depicting big guys who are weak. If Nappa was strong, he would be comparable to Goku's Base form the entire time and not only during a 3 seconds bout.

Additionally, Chi AMP's vary all the time throughout Dragonball Z. The 1.33x figure is not a principal and nobody has to follow it.

Goku called Nappa a 'tough' bastard, which means he thinks he's durable, but that's not the same as being powerful.

Are you implying goku powered down again? That doesn't work for me. There isnt a possible time later on where he couldve been hinted to power back up against vegeta.

In those 3 seconds of scuffle goku did however admit he was doing much better than before which seperates that occasion from the other three.

I still have a different perspective for the quote. You see goku vegeta and nappa lined up side by side. Just visually who would you think is the strongest?

1.33x is about the same gap as goku's kkx4 kamehameha and Vegeta's galick gun. Those are ki attacks from the same arc yet look at how much damage and a lead the kamehameha would pull with the same gap.

Its the same as vegeta and recoome as well. Infact there are many one sided possibilities with that gap in the series. Why do you think this would be an exception?

Durable or not when it came to close combat strength is a big factor as well.

It's good that you stated that 'It doesn't work for ME', but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work in general, because it does. Even the anime gets this notion when it shows Goku power up and power down. The same thing is implied in the artwork of the Manga. Additionally, this makes the Daizenshuu power levels fit perfectly. I believe you are finding errors where errors don't exist and can otherwise be explained by other reasoning, power levels and gaps are NOT absolute and do contradict one another. There is more to a fight than just 'who has the bigger power level'.

Nappa was doing better because he calmed his mind and improved his fighting ability. Yet Goku was still mocking him and not taking him serious. So that 3 second bout' doesn't account for much.

Vegeta's Gallic Gun was over-powered and defeated, yet it took time to charge and amplify. An ass-pulled Kamehameha won't reap the same rewards.

The Dodoria vs Vegeta gap was infinitely smaller than the Recoome vs Vegeta gap, or that Vegeta vs Zarbon gap, or the Goku vs Frieza gap, or the... do you see where I'm going with here? Gaps do not scale linearly and are a hugely misinformed factor to base anything on.

Yes, this is an exception because:

a) Nappa didn't land a single hit.
b) Nappa was speed blitz'd on 3 occasions.
c) Nappa's best attack was thrown aside

a) Nappa was rendered unconscious temporarily from the Z-Fighters.
b) Nappa's hand was numb from Gohan's attack.
c) Nappa couldn't one shot Piccolo with an off guard attack.
d) Nappa was temporarily bested by Krillen
e) Nappa couldn't one-shot Piccolo with a charged Chi attack.
f) Nappa was actually hit by the Z-Fighters.

Therefore, Nappa is closer to Goku than he is to the Z-Fighters. When Nappa calmed his mind, his power isn't noted to have increased, so it's a logical fallacy to determine that he did. Nappa must be under 6,000 for any the figures above to work.

Additionally, Goku says it would take all day based off their beam struggle. However Vegeta knew Nappa was finished because it was his best attack, so he called him down.

Because Nappa is durable and that speed doesn't correlate with strength, it can easily allow him to partake in a battle where he's able to fight above his own. This is not a new concept.

 

[Zippy]

Goku arrives to the battlefield with a PL of 5,000. His power level increases a bit but he's nowhere near full power, and he's able to tool Nappa on 3 separate occasions. In one occasions his facial expression looks rather pissed off, so if you want to base it off that, I guess Goku's Base Power was 5,000 and not 8,000.

After-wards, Goku does a power up to 8,000, but the artwork includes written sounds, and a relaxed Goku, as though he let the energy disperse and only did it to show his buffs.

The whole point about Toriyama's quote above is not to suggest whose the strongest there, it's about depicting big guys who are weak. If Nappa was strong, he would be comparable to Goku's Base form the entire time and not only during a 3 seconds bout.

Additionally, Chi AMP's vary all the time throughout Dragonball Z. The 1.33x figure is not a principal and nobody has to follow it.

Goku called Nappa a 'tough' bastard, which means he thinks he's durable, but that's not the same as being powerful.

Are you implying goku powered down again? That doesn't work for me. There isnt a possible time later on where he couldve been hinted to power back up against vegeta.

In those 3 seconds of scuffle goku did however admit he was doing much better than before which seperates that occasion from the other three.

I still have a different perspective for the quote. You see goku vegeta and nappa lined up side by side. Just visually who would you think is the strongest?

1.33x is about the same gap as goku's kkx4 kamehameha and Vegeta's galick gun. Those are ki attacks from the same arc yet look at how much damage and a lead the kamehameha would pull with the same gap.

Its the same as vegeta and recoome as well. Infact there are many one sided possibilities with that gap in the series. Why do you think this would be an exception?

Durable or not when it came to close combat strength is a big factor as well.

It's good that you stated that 'It doesn't work for ME', but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work in general, because it does. Even the anime gets this notion when it shows Goku power up and power down. The same thing is implied in the artwork of the Manga. Additionally, this makes the Daizenshuu power levels fit perfectly. I believe you are finding errors where errors don't exist and can otherwise be explained by other reasoning, power levels and gaps are NOT absolute and do contradict one another. There is more to a fight than just 'who has the bigger power level'.

Nappa was doing better because he calmed his mind and improved his fighting ability. Yet Goku was still mocking him and not taking him serious. So that 3 second bout' doesn't account for much.

Vegeta's Gallic Gun was over-powered and defeated, yet it took time to charge and amplify. An ass-pulled Kamehameha won't reap the same rewards.

The Dodoria vs Vegeta gap was infinitely smaller than the Recoome vs Vegeta gap, or that Vegeta vs Zarbon gap, or the Goku vs Frieza gap, or the... do you see where I'm going with here? Gaps do not scale linearly and are a hugely misinformed factor to base anything on.

Yes, this is an exception because:

a) Nappa didn't land a single hit.
b) Nappa was speed blitz'd on 3 occasions.
c) Nappa's best attack was thrown aside

a) Nappa was rendered unconscious temporarily from the Z-Fighters.
b) Nappa's hand was numb from Gohan's attack.
c) Nappa couldn't one shot Piccolo with an off guard attack.
d) Nappa was temporarily bested by Krillen
e) Nappa couldn't one-shot Piccolo with a charged Chi attack.
f) Nappa was actually hit by the Z-Fighters.

Therefore, Nappa is closer to Goku than he is to the Z-Fighters. When Nappa calmed his mind, his power isn't noted to have increased, so it's a logical fallacy to determine that he did. Nappa must be under 6,000 for any the figures above to work.

Additionally, Goku says it would take all day based off their beam struggle. However Vegeta knew Nappa was finished because it was his best attack, so he called him down.

Because Nappa is durable and that speed doesn't correlate with strength, it can easily allow him to partake in a battle where he's able to fight above his own. This is not a new concept.

Okay then please provide a time where he powered up again? Unless you are willing to argue he stayed at 5,000 even against vegeta until he had used his kaioken.

It accounts for alot more than before. After this the fight completely changes and goku no longer has the same lead he did. Now tell me. Had he been "calm minded" like this from the start and the fight went on like it did afterwards. Would you still agree with this level? Goku had every reason to be confident. Nothing had tooken a turn against him. Things just got tougher.

All gaps you mentioned there were protrayed how they should unless you follow the diaz numbers.

All thiss points are before the turn of events happened before goku there was a clear and undeniable change. Nappa thought goku's number was wrong at first though and he was also in denial. also if you are going to argue that nappa's level wasnt noted to change then why wasn't goku's when according to you it dropped back down to 5,000?

A beam struggle he shrugged off quick made him feel that way or the fact that the fight had completely changed in the past few minutes? So what if vegeta called him down? He obviously wasn't going to finish goku anytime soon like he wanted.


So durability alone makes him capable of physically being a threat to goku as well huh?

 

[kriss-]

Okay then please provide a time where he powered up again? Unless you are willing to argue he stayed at 5,000 even against vegeta until he had used his kaioken.

It's Gokus base form, he doesn't need to power up to access it. He was just showing his buffs to scare Nappa.

It accounts for alot more than before. After this the fight completely changes and goku no longer has the same lead he did. Now tell me. Had he been "calm minded" like this from the start and the fight went on like it did afterwards. Would you still agree with this level? Goku had every reason to be confident. Nothing had tooken a turn against him. Things just got tougher.

Goku still had the same lead that he did, hence why Vegeta called him down. He was finished if the fight had continued.

All gaps you mentioned there were protrayed how they should unless you follow the diaz numbers.

I'd put more trust in an official source that is praised by Toriyama for accuracy over a kid/adult sitting on his computer at home arguing what's what. That, and the workers on the Daizenshuu had direct access to Toriyama.

Gaps are inconsistent.

All thiss points are before the turn of events happened before goku there was a clear and undeniable change. Nappa thought goku's number was wrong at first though and he was also in denial. also if you are going to argue that nappa's level wasnt noted to change then why wasn't goku's when according to you it dropped back down to 5,000?

All Nappa did was last a little longer. He still didn't land a single attack. Because of the fight still being so one sided, he decides to his his ultimate attack at close range. This proves futile and Vegeta calls him down.

The fight is over. Nothings changed.

A beam struggle he shrugged off quick made him feel that way or the fact that the fight had completely changed in the past few minutes? So what if vegeta called him down? He obviously wasn't going to finish goku anytime soon like he wanted.

An uncharged Kamehameha was able to cancel out Nappa's ultimate attack. There is a huge difference in power here.

So durability alone makes him capable of physically being a threat to goku as well huh?

It's only a problem because you make it wrong and do not understand that there are more concepts than someone having a higher power level.

Nappa was never a threat to Goku, and you still haven't been able to respond to the feats that clearly depict the 'Goku & Nappa' gap as bigger than the 'Nappa & Z-Fighter gap'.

 

[Tapion]

[mention]h0kuten[/mention]In my works, “guys who seem like they ought to be strong are actually weak”
“guys who seem like they ought to be strong are actually weak.” ……Like Nappa. (laughs)[/mention]

Toriyama was joking when he said that. The context yells that.

Argument: Nappa was able to fight evenly with Goku's Base form
Counter: Nappa didn't land a single hit. Whereas Goku was mocking him.

You're counter blatantly ignores the fact that Goku couldn't land a hit on Nappa either.

Argument: The Z-Fighters stood no chance.
Counter: Nappa's arm was turned numb by Gohan's Masenko of 2,800. He was briefly immobilized from an attack from Piccolo. (or Krillen, I can't remember which) He wasn't able to one shot Piccolo with an off-guard attack. None of the above happens during Nappa's brief bout' with Goku. Logically, he's closer in power to the Z-Fighters than he is to Goku. In addition, the Z-Fighters fared much better against Nappa than Nappa against Goku.

You're exaggerating a little. Nappa's arm was not turned numb, was only a little stinged, which is something equivalent to punching a wall with a little force. Nappa was also keeping Piccolo alive for a reason.

Argument: Nappa expected Goku's 5,000 PL to be a minimum.
Counter: Vegeta expected that. Nappa on the other-hand continually under-estimates the Z-Fighters. He was warned beforehand about their PL's increasing as far back as the Radditz Arc, but he never listened.

Nappa had reasons to underestimate them. Nobody would have thought that a human of 5 could go to 1,400+ in less than a year.

Argument: Goku said the fight would take all day. Goku & Nappa must be closer in power.
Counter: Goku said that under the knowledge of not knowing that Nappa had just performed his best attack. It was in that moment that Vegeta calls Nappa down because he knows he's finished if the fight continues.

Vegeta never called Nappa down in the manga. He was just impressed. Also, Nappa took absolutely no damage from the same Kamehameha that bounced off his best technique.

Argument: Nappa was able to stale-mate Goku in a beam struggle.
Counter: With an uncharged Kamehameha that was shot point blank.

Charging time is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the plot effect of the attack.

 

[Nèro]

His power is over 9000. He was just shocked that Goku's power was equal to his

I thought Nappa was only 8000.

 

[kriss-]

To sum this up rather quickly and became I am disdainfully reluctant in 'debating' with you Tapion, I'll quote Kaboom:

Kaboom

There's literally nothing wrong with Nappa's power level being 4,000. The manga never laid out any rules about who can do what at whatever power difference. Such limitations only exist in the minds of fans. As soon as you start saying "Character A can't do such-and-such to Character B at only X% of his power level," then you've officially started making up extra criteria that the manga, Toriyama, and everything else official never have.

Here's the only questions that need to be asked.

Q: Is 4,000 a higher PL than the strongest person Nappa beat?
A: Yes, that'd be Piccolo at 1,220/3,500.

Q: Is 4,000 a lower PL than the person who beat Nappa?
A: Yes again, that's Goku at 8,000-ish.

Then it passes the test and is perfectly valid, because those are the only actual criteria, and even they aren't 100% concrete.

Saying "Nappa can't do such-and-such at only 4,000" is drawing unnecessary conclusions about power gaps. Those power level numbers are nothing more than a measurement of raw ki, and that alone can not and does not determine the course or even outcome of fights. This isn't two stationary robots firing beams at each other — it's a clash between two characters, with very different qualities aside from just their power. Combat in a fantasy/action story can't be reduced to simply a comparison of numbers.

So all that said... can Nappa challenge or even possibly beat Goku at half his power level, because he's tough and skilled and clear-headed? Yeah, why not? Because nothing says he can't do so but made-up rules imposed upon him and his power level by fans. Learn to just let go of whatever you think you know about power level numbers and how they compare. Those "rules" are only placing undue and useless restrictions on yourself.

Of course, if you're just making up your own power level lists or something, then by all means use your own rules and give Nappa whatever level you want. But from a more objective and common sense standpoint, the notion of "Nappa can't only be 4,000 because he couldn't have done those things he did at that level because <fan-made rule>" is 100% baloney.

I remembered something Toriyama said recently which may render the entire "debate" even more moot than it already is. Not only are power level gap rules baloney in general, but it seems they're a little extra baloney when it comes to Saiyans:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -toriyama/
The Man wrote:
"I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15."


This seems to apply perfectly to Nappa vs Goku to me.

Against Raditz, of course. His PL of 408 won against a PL of 1,500 thanks to backup (Goku and Gohan) and being amplified by a potent technique (the Makankosappo). Which shouldn't have been possible if some proportional comparison of starting powers was all that mattered in a fight.

In the same way, Nappa (4,000) had a chance at beating Goku (8,000) by means of his "toughness" letting the fight be prolonged enough that his strength would gradually catch up to Goku's. Heck, maybe it was already starting to, since his mouth-blast ultimate attack presumably could have hurt Goku.

This shiz is so freakin' easy as soon as you let go of all the "but A is only X% of B so he can't do Y" nonsense.

He sums it up rather nicely and I generally agree with everything he says there. :elmo

 

[Tapion]

Kaboom's text doesn't means anything. If you really thinks that Nappa at 4,000 can fight with a 2x stronger opponent, while Goku at 90,000 one-shotted Recoome at 45,000, then sorry, but you need an hospital.

 

[kriss-]

You need to chill out in your responses before I start flagging them.

Toriyama's interview is regarding Saiyans, Recoome isn't a Saiyan. So it works.

 

[DBZAOTA482]

I'd rather Nappa at 4k when angry but 6k while calm. 4000 at max is too much of a low-ball given Nappa was able to trade blows with Goku once he got his shit together but 7500 is too much of a high-ball as he was never shown ever being on his level. He only kept up with Goku momentarily out of surprise and had his most powerful technique bounced off by a half-assed Kamehameha at near point-blank distance despite Goku being caught off-guard.

 

[Papasmurf]

I don't trust any of the Shonen Jump-originated numbers, especially considering they rated Kami lower than Piccolo Daimao

 

[kriss-]

Your principals and fan made rules on gaps are not taken into consideration when I formulate my opinion regarding the matter at hand. My ideology is as factually correct as your own.

 

[Victorious]

I don't trust any of the Shonen Jump-originated numbers, especially considering they rated Kami lower than Piccolo Daimao

Lol, Kami can finger flick a power > Piccolo Daimao.

 

[ahill1]

I think they meant old Piccolo Daimao rather than Kami. Having Kami lower than young Piccolo is just retarded and invalidates all of those power levels.

 

[kriss-]

Goku
-Initial 5,000
-Power-Burst 8,000 (Temporary)
-KHH 6,750

Nappa
-Initial 3,000
-Powered Up 3,600
-Calm 4,500
-Mouth Blast 6,750

Oh ya buddy!