HOW I UNDERSTAND SUPER SAIYAN GRADES, MULTIPLIERS, WHY GRADE 2/3 AREN'T STRONGER THAN GRADE 4

[VampireWicked]

Okay Here's why I basically believe SuperSaiyan is a times 50 multiplier, & how I understand it.
Also how fixed transformation multipliers, SuperSaiyan Grades works with PowerLevels.

PowerLevels & Multipliers.


PowerLevels & multipliers are two separate things.
PowerLevels are the numbers seen by a scouter.

Now no matter what the PowerLevel is, it gets multiplied by whatever the set transformation multiplier is.

Like if Vegeta has a Base PowerLevel of 20,000,000,000
SuperSaiyan multiplies it by 50 & it's 1,000,000,000,000

Freeza 50%: 60 million
Freeza 100%: 120 million
After reaching his final form, Freeza overwhelms Goku with only half of his true capabilities. However, he unleashes his full power after the appearance of the Super Saiyan.

Note: This puts 50% Freeza as twice as strong as Goku using the Kaiō-Ken x10, and equal to Goku with Kaiō-Ken x20. Goku says in the manga that his Kaiō-Ken x20 attack hardly damaged Freeza.

Daizenshuu 7′s battle powers for both Freeza’s full power and Super Saiyan Goku are commonly said to be only 12 and 15 million, respectively, while normal Goku is given as 300,000 and Freeza at 50% as 6 million. This misconception most likely traces back to the Ultimate DBZ Information Site, a very influential English Dragon Ball fan site in the 1990s that was run by Greg Werner. On the “Little Known Dragon Ball Z Facts” page, item 26 provides a list of all battle powers from the manga or daizenshuu, and it gives these numbers for Goku and Freeza.

Werner prided himself on creating all of his site’s content, and much of his site consisted of things he took from Daizenshuu 7, so it is unlikely that he relied on someone else to make his list. Countless other fan sites relied on Werner’s site for information (and often took his content verbatim), so this mistranslation spread throughout the English-speaking Dragon Ball fan community. In particular, the popular site Planet Namek also used 12 and 15 million in their power levels list, color-coding them as being from the daizenshuu. It is possible that “SkullMac”, the individual responsible for maintaining Planet Namek′s power list, made the same translation mistake as Werner, but it is more likely that he relied upon Werner’s site for these numbers.

At any rate, how would someone mistranslate these numbers? This is the way those battle powers are written in Daizenshuu 7:

Goku: 300万
Super Saiyan Goku: 1億5000万
Freeza 50%: 6000万
Freeza 100%: 1 億2000万

“万” (man) is the kanji for 10 thousand, while “億” (oku) represents 100 million. If you do the math, “300 man” is 3 million and “1 oku, 5 thousand man” is 150 million. It is easy to see how someone not too experienced with the Japanese number system could make a mistake converting them, especially since all the previous battle powers in this section of Daizenshuu 7 are written purely in Arabic numerals, with no kanji or mathematical conversion required.

Super Saiyan: 150 million
The warrior of legend, the Super Saiyan, finally awakens. In addition to having battle power 50 times that of his normal state, he now overwhelms even Freeza.

Note: Since Goku was unable to beat Freeza with Kaiō-Ken x20 while Freeza was only using half his power but was then finally able to defeat Freeza as a Super Saiyan, we can infer that Goku as a Super Saiyan must be over 40 times as powerful as he is normally.
This rule of Super Saiyan yielding a 50-fold increase in power is also mentioned in Daizenshuu 7′s glossary entry on Super Saiyan, and in its attack dictionary entry for Super Saiyan as well. It also turns up in the first volume of the Dragon Ball GT Perfect Files (where it is said to be “according to one theory”), Dragon Ball: Landmark, and the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, which simply reprints Daizenshuu 7′s battle power list. In the entry for “Battle Power” in Daizenshuu 7′s terms glossary, Super Saiyan Goku’s battle power is given as “over 150 million”.

Also in the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, Toriyama revealed in an interview that he thought a multiplier of 50 was rather large, and that he had originally drawn it with the sense of being a 10-fold increase in what Goku had been “up until then”. It is unclear how this would put Super Saiyan in relation to Goku’s regular use of Kaiō-Ken x10 to gain a 10-fold increase in power, and the “up until then” bit muddies things further.
Since Goku had already multiplied his power 10 and 20 times with the Kaiō-Ken as he fought Freeza, did Toriyama mean that he thought of Super Saiyan as being 10 times stronger than that, meaning it would make Goku overall 100 or 200 times stronger than he normally was?

If so, it is hard to make sense of Toriyama saying that a 50-fold increase is too large. If Toriyama meant that it only made Goku 10 times stronger than he was without using Kaiō-Ken, then Super Saiyan Goku is only half as strong as he was when using the Kaiō-Ken x20, at which point he was unable to significantly harm Freeza. Perhaps the answer is that Toriyama is being his usual forgetful self, since he himself admits in the same interview to have forgotten much of Dragon Ball′s story himself, and that we should not take these numbers he throws out too seriously.

https://i.imgur.com/HXO7Ygq.jpg

That's why the statement made by LordBerus makes sense.

[youtube]zxIzrmGOwQE[/youtube]​

Power increases, Zenkai scaling, after Namek were small for Saiyans in Base.
So Transformations, & Fusions were introduced.

Note: The ending paragraph seems to mostly be a way of explaining why no battle powers are available after the battle with Freeza, saying that past this point battle powers become simply immeasurable. The way the note about near-death power-ups becoming “small” is phrased in Japanese (sukunakunatta), it could either mean that they became small, infrequent, or simply insufficient.

In Base Saiyan PowerLevels did increase but not beyond the PowerLevel needed as a SuperSaiyan to defeat Frieza on Namek.
150 million

This is the reason why I never see multipliers as changing, & why I've always seen them as set.

Raising the Transformation multiplier & or the Based PowerLevel I see as completely pointless when a fixed multiplier & an higher arbitrary Base PowerLevels would accomplish the same task.

An Arbitrary Base PowerLevel could do as long as it doesn't come close to hitting 100Million.
That way it doesn't contradict the statement by Beerus.saying Frieza > Base Saiyans.

Which takes me to SuperSaiyan Grades.

The Grades I don't see as Transformations.
It makes no sense, why would Grade2 & Grade3 have their own multipliers to begin with when they're the same form just buffed up within the initial SuperSaiyan Transformation itself.

•Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai ichi-dankai (the normal Super Saiyan, or SSJ1)


• Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai ni-dankai (USSJ 1; the second stage of SSJ1)


• Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai san-dankai (USSJ 2; the third stage of SSJ1)


Goku is the first to go through the transformation into a Super Saiyan. It is widely speculated that the Sentô Ryoku ("combat strength," or if you must, "power level") of the character must be around 180,000, which Goku reaches on Namek; this cannot be confirmed or denied, however (it's merely speculation). The transformation into a Super Saiyan is generally caused by an overwhelming sense of rage and hatred.

In Goku's case, when Freeza shoots Piccolo through the chest (nearly killing him), murders Kuririn by causing him to explode from the inside, and declares he will be going after Gohan next... well... yeah, that just about does it.

The stage is characterized by giant spikey golden hair. The pupils also turn a bluish green color. The power of the character is exponentially increased. Control over this power, however, is not always the easiest thing at first. The Super Saiyan stage has an interesting effect on the Son family, in addition to its normal effects: the way their eyes are drawn changes slightly. Normally, the outline around the eye is not fully drawn (it circles around about 3/4 of the way the eyeball). When in Super Saiyan, their eyes are fully surrounded by an outline (the same way that all villains are drawn; this is due to Toriyama wanting to show the anger and hatred that must be present for a Super Saiyan transformation).



There are actually two stages within the "USSJ" stage, really just varying levels of the same exact thing. In the first stage, the muscles increase in size, while power rises. In the second stage, the muscles increase in size even more, the power rises even more, speed falls, and with some characters, the pupils disappear. In each of the those stages, more energy is consumed, as well.


In the second stage, the muscles increase in size even more, the power rises even more, speed falls.
The body mass increases greatly (creating an almost awkward looking character; so short, yet so buff!).

While obvious that Trunks is able to reach USSJ1, he takes it one step further to USSJ2 (note: this is not SSJ2, which is explained below. Trunks never reaches SSJ2). His body mass increases along with his raw power, but his speed unfortunately decreases, as well. The energy consumption is also increased.

Trunks also introduces the idea of losing the pupils during the transformation, which would surface once again with Broli in DBZ movie eight with the "Legendary" stage (see below). Trunks' raw power is actually greater than Vegeta's, in this form. Trunks holds off showcasing his new power until Vegeta is knocked unconscious, fearful of not only surpassing his father, but seeing the reaction from his father. Due to his lack of speed, while Trunks may have had the power to do battle with Perfect Cell, he simply was not able to keep up, and thus conceded.

They're just Power Ups.
Power Ups of the initial SuperSaiyan form to a point beyond its limits to properly control that much Ki.

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Note the massive increase in muscle size for G2 & G3.

Reminds me of Master Roshi's Buff state.
A state which is a drawback of more Ki that exceeded his limits in regular form.

The Buff exaggerated muscular form is famous for this.

To use GreatSaiyaman's posted evidence.

The Daizenshuu entry for Bojack says "By heightening his ki, he enlarges his muscles to power up." So that indicates the muscles enlarge because the ki is heightened and the power up comes from the enlarged muscles, not merely the heightened ki by itself. These bulked up muscle forms should all behave similarly regardless of species in my opinion. They should all have the same essential functions unless stated otherwise, so if anyone wants to say Bojack or Freeza's muscle forms behave differently than a Saiyan's I say prove it. And I don't think they can.

Muscles are commonly associated with strain in Dragon Ball. Freeza's body only bulked up because his Ki size was disproportionally bigger than his Ki control, and Daizenshuu 2 does states Roshi's body bulged as a consequence of his mighty power.

The same thing happens with Grade 2 & 3, the body bulges as a consequence of poor Ki Control of that power.
Through training that tremendous power can be managed in a normal frame.
Hence Grade4.
That's the entire point of G4.
To have that power beyond the initial SuperSaiyan limit in a form that handles it with perfet Ki Control is the goal Goku was shooting for.

Buffing up muscle mass means nothing.
Statements from PerfectCell shows this, Trunks realizes this.

[youtube]8soUzqi-SJA[/youtube]
[youtube]XQEpSnvynPg[/youtube]​

In fact G2 & G3 were pointless as they both had ridiculous drawbacks, so much so that Vegeta who seeks power didn't want to use G3 & Goku never bothered using either.

Is my explanation to the point where it's understandable ?




10-24-2019
Okay something i didn't think about a new way of seeing this all.
POTENTIAL!
It's Potential not a multiplier Boost.

The overall Transformation is a x50 multiplier but it's only multiplying a small percentage of the Potential of each Grade.
Each Grade accesses more Potential then the previous Grade does, as much their bodies can handle anyway.


If there were two fighters with equal Base, One fighter can only reach Grade3 & The Other has Mastered all 4Grades.
Then The fighter who Mastered all four Grades of SuperSaiyan is the fighter who has unlocked the full Potential of the Transformation is going to have the higher Battle Power as he can fully utilize the form completely.

 

[SSJ2]

Yea?

Where is a fixed multiplier not implied? That sounds like overcomplicating things for no reason.

 

[ahill1]

Yea?

Where is a fixed multiplier not implied? That sounds like overcomplicating things for no reason.

Gero thinking himself + Earthlings + suppressed Piccolo can deal with ssj Vegeta.

 

[SSJ2]

He’s wrong?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Why?

 

[SSJ2]

Well hold on. I'm not trying to say it has to be fixed to 50x. But from what I'm reading in that quote it sound like that guy is suggesting a boost based on addition, or that not every fighter will get a consistent boost? I'm asking where is that implied?

 

[VampireWicked]

Well hold on. I'm not trying to say it has to be fixed to 50x. But from what I'm reading in that quote it sound like that guy is suggesting a boost based on addition, or that not every fighter will get a consistent boost? I'm asking where is that implied?

That's just it, he doesn't offer anything not even addition because & i quote.

Secondly, the reason I do not offer up a solid alternative is because of all the interpretations present.

His basis for multipliers not working is because of the following list he points out.

So, frustratingly I had a lengthy post in-progress when my computer decided to crash. I'll throw some examples in reply but it's a little draining.

Seriously? There's a reason it's challenged every other day.

Here's a few reasons off the top of my head:

1. [1 Arm] Gohan sparring SSJ Trunks but also claiming he'll likely be surpassed within months, even though in 15 years they haven't even surpassed [Yardrat+6months] Goku.
2. Gero believing that absorbing the energy of "Humans + [Suppressed] Piccolo" or "[Suppressed] Piccolo x2" would allow him to compete with SSJ Vegeta.
3. [Pre] Gotenks is implied to sit between SSJ2 Goku and Fat Buu yet [Pre] SSJ Gotenks is barely surpassing SSJ3 Goku levels.
4. [Post] Gotenks surpasses his [Pre] SSJ self, Trunks and Piccolo believing they now stand a possible chance at [Initial] Super Buu. Yet, 1. The boys aren't implied to have improved much (as per Piccolo's worry pre-fusion), and 2. [Post] SSJ Gotenks proves to be on [Initial] Super Buu's level.
5. Freeza > [Buu] Base Goku (hahahaha)
   
   Here's one from Super:
   
6. Base Vegeta and Cabba are equals but SSJ Vegeta is far and away SSJ Cabba's superior.
   
   And just to be clear: Grade 4 is still Super Saiyan. If you're giving it different rules, you've already fallen into the trap. Super Saiyan follows the same ruleset for every character (if it changed for anyone it would be noted). It is a system within the story that does what it needs to at any given moment. It is made quite clear that the ratio shifts dynamically.
   
   "Gotenks can't possibly be stronger than his pre-RoSaT SSJ self because he'd have to get 50x stronger! It's ridiculous and not implied at all!" - The only problem here is the 50x multiplier you're trying to force to work.
   "Gero is simply wrong. The Humans are all below base Vegeta and would barely be 1-2% of his power at most." Why? Was he proven wrong? And why would he believe that small an increase would give him the leg-up he needed? Especially when there's still a tier where Piccolo sits between him and any hope of facing SSJ Vegeta. He wouldn't. That would be ridiculous. Gero's sensors work fine before that moment (which makes Vegeta's buff actually impressive).
   "Piccolo's estimation of Gotenks was a gag!" I guess Trunks' was too? Pages earlier... where no funnies were to be found... I guess they're both smoking the same thing to think someone 2% of [Initial] Super Buu stood a chance against him.

1. 
   
   
   I've explained each as best i could.
   1. Different dimensions & time lines.
   Yardrat Goku isn't from the same dimensional time line as FutureTrunks.
   That FutureTrunks did say the Android17 & Android18 are stronger than the Android17 & Android18 from his time line.
   
   Also FutureTrunks getting stronger then FutureGohan wouldn't have anything to do with a multiplier.
   It's the PowerLevel that increases, FutureTrunks can increase his PowerLevel & become stronger then FutureGohan's PowerLevel.
   The multiplier only plays part in the transformation.
   
   
   2. Gero only knew of the events on earth & the calculations of off world PowerLevel increases are unknown to him.
   
   3. There's no indication how far above Base Gotenks was in comparison to AscendedSaiyan Goku or that SuperSaiyan Gotenks was only slightly above SuperSaiyan 3 Goku.
   Chubby Buu's PowerLevel was increasing before the split, with the increased PowerLevel of Buu, Base Gotenks can sit below Chubby Buu & perfectly far above while still seemingly slightly above SuperSaiyan 3 Goku as SuperSaiyan Gotenks but he actually would be farther from SuperSaiyan 3 Goku in truth.
   
   Remember agreeing that PowerLevels do change, so taking that into account when applying a fixed multiplier.
   
   
   5. Yeah i don't believe that.
   
   6. Suppressed Vegeta & Vegeta showing off.
   
   i expressed my opinion on the Grades before awhile back.
   The Grades are only pushing more power than the form can properly utilise, through that fixed multiplier.
   Why you're getting exaggerated muscles.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Some lines imply that but I also don't believe in multipliers.

Any Super-Saiyan even a hypothetical SSJ Raditz > 100% Freeza. Easy.

 

[VampireWicked]

Some lines imply that but I also don't believe in multipliers.

Any Super-Saiyan even a hypothetical SSJ Raditz > 100% Freeza. Easy.

Not if Raditz has a much lower Base PowerLevel.
The x50 multiplier only multiples what's there in Base.

Raditz as a SuperSaiyan would have a PowerLevel of 60,000
1st Form Frieza has a PowerLevel of 530,000.

Raditz would be toast.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

So a Super-Saiyan lower than Captain-Ginyu? l0l alright

That sure makes sense. The Freeza Saga was all about Freeza fearing a potential Super-Saiyan when most Saiyans that were to turn Super-Saiyan would be fodderized by Captain-Ginyu. Makes sense.

 

[VampireWicked]

So a Super-Saiyan lower than Captain-Ginyu? l0l alright

That sure makes sense. The Freeza Saga was all about Freeza fearing a potential Super-Saiyan when most Saiyans that were to turn Super-Saiyan would be fodderized by Captain-Ginyu. Makes sense.

Yeah with their lower PowerLevels at the time.

Although as a SuperSaiyan Raditz could take out Guldo, but would have a problem with Jeice, Burter, or Recoome, each with a PowerLevel of 64,000 i think.

But yup it was the growing PowerLevels Frieza feared from the Saiyans, & multiplied with SuperSaiyan, Goku shown catching up to 100% Frieza.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

It was said a level of 60,000 could take-out the whole force, barring the captain himself.

They were still way off being an actual threat to him though. How was he that far-off the mark? Purely power-wise, Captain-Ginyu was more of a threat to him.

 

[VampireWicked]

It was said a level of 60,000 could take-out the whole force, barring the captain himself.

They were still way off being an actual threat to him though. How was he that far-off the mark? Purely power-wise, Captain-Ginyu was more of a threat to him.

Captain-Ginyu had a PowerLevel of 120,000, so i think SuperSaiyan Raditz could take out the Ginyu Force except Captain-Ginyu.

There would be a 4,000 PowerLevel difference between a SuperSaiyan Raditz & Jeice, Burter, or Recoome.
I think SuperSaiyan Raditz could have a chance, but remember SuperSaiyan wasn't achieved till the end of the Frieza Saga so Raditz would have to try in Base.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I agree SSJ Raditz > Freeza.