How strong is Goku and Piccolo in BoZ?

[SIAD]

It is said that they are multiple times stronger than in the TB23, since Piccolo (Weighted) launched a casual attack and traveled 390,000 KM in a few seconds and destroyed the Moon, a feat superior both in speed and in level of destruction to his ancient feat of destroying the Island with its most amplified technique.

However, I have started to think that there must not necessarily be such a wide difference, since although it is true that Buff Roshi's feat of destroying the Moon was an atypical case, I have also started to think that the attack of Piccolo could also be a bit unusual, I'll tell you why.

Before Raditz's arrival, Goku throws a stone on the Island, impressing the others. Krillin comments in surprise that Goku still retains the extraordinary power that he had 5 years ago. Anyway Goku's statement about how hard Piccolo trained after seeing him take off his heavy clothes is a clear indicator that Piccolo (Weighted / BoZ) is >> Piccolo (TB23).

It would also strike me that Kamisama can create a Moon with an ability to withstand attacks billions of times more powerful than his own power.

Kamisama congratulating the Humans for getting over it, hints that Kamisama is not an absolute fodder at that point in the series. Surely since then the Humans progressed a lot to the Arc Saiyan, but I doubt that they have become millions of times stronger.

 

[SSJ2]

DB's moon might be made of glass.

 

[Hector]

Goku revelled in family life and Piccolo focused on perfecting his Special Beam Canon. They don't have to be very different from their 23rd TB selves.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Goku revelled in family life and Piccolo focused on perfecting his Special Beam Canon. They don't have to be very different from their 23rd TB selves.

23rd TB Piccolo/Goku's best feats were Small Country level with MHS speed, whereas even a weighted Piccolo is shown to be at least Moon level with Relativistic speed. That's a gigantic difference.

It would also strike me that Kamisama can create a Moon with an ability to withstand attacks billions of times more powerful than his own power.

Kami only restored the moon back to its original place and is naturally gifted in magic as shown by his creation of the DBs (which are capable of abilities he can't use offensively). Restoring an object back to its original position is far different from using it offensively in battle.

Kamisama congratulating the Humans for getting over it, hints that Kamisama is not an absolute fodder at that point in the series.

Most if not all the Earthlings were weaker than him prior to the training and the likes of Yajirobe didn't even train that hard. Surpassing such a benchmark as Kami would obviously be something worth noting.

Surely since then the Humans progressed a lot to the Arc Saiyan, but I doubt that they have become millions of times stronger.

That's what the plot makes apparent. Toriyama isn't one to concern himself with calculations of real world energy values, after all, so what's realistically a thousand-fold boost is just an afterthought to him.

 

[SIAD]

Goku revelled in family life and Piccolo focused on perfecting his Special Beam Canon. They don't have to be very different from their 23rd TB selves.

23rd TB Piccolo/Goku's best feats were Small Country level with MHS speed, whereas even a weighted Piccolo is shown to be at least Moon level with Relativistic speed. That's a gigantic difference.

It would also strike me that Kamisama can create a Moon with an ability to withstand attacks billions of times more powerful than his own power.

Kami only restored the moon back to its original place and is naturally gifted in magic as shown by his creation of the DBs (which are capable of abilities he can't use offensively). Restoring an object back to its original position is far different from using it offensively in battle.

Kamisama congratulating the Humans for getting over it, hints that Kamisama is not an absolute fodder at that point in the series.

Most if not all the Earthlings were weaker than him prior to the training and the likes of Yajirobe didn't even train that hard. Surpassing such a benchmark as Kami would obviously be something worth noting.

Surely since then the Humans progressed a lot to the Arc Saiyan, but I doubt that they have become millions of times stronger.

That's what the plot makes apparent. Toriyama isn't one to concern himself with calculations of real world energy values, after all, so what's realistically a thousand-fold boost is just an afterthought to him.

The thing is, Kamisama should be> Chaoz (Saiyan Fill) and the combined power of Tenshinhan + Krillin + Yamcha +! Chaoz is 1,507. Therefore, at least the first 3 must be stronger than Goku (BoZ), while Chaoz would be inferior to Kamisama. Practically Chaoz would be absolutely insignificant compared to the other 3 Humans.

Furthermore, if Kamisama has the ability to restore the Moon, he would be restoring the weak Moon that Buff Roshi destroyed.

 

[Hector]

23rd TB Piccolo/Goku's best feats were Small Country level with MHS speed, whereas even a weighted Piccolo is shown to be at least Moon level with Relativistic speed. That's a gigantic difference.

Aren't you the one who has said like a bazillion times that Moon feats are outliers?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The thing is, Kamisama should be> Chaoz (Saiyan Fill) and the combined power of Tenshinhan + Krillin + Yamcha +! Chaoz is 1,507. Therefore, at least the first 3 must be stronger than Goku (BoZ), while Chaoz would be inferior to Kamisama. Practically Chaoz would be absolutely insignificant compared to the other 3 Humans.

That would only apply for the anime continuity, which is renowned for boosting the capabilities of characters whenever it suits the plot without explanation (eg. the numerous pieces of contradictive scaling in the anime's Boo Arc).

Furthermore, if Kamisama has the ability to restore the Moon, he would be restoring the weak Moon that Buff Roshi destroyed.

The feat in general was an outlier, particularly seeing as how the Kamehameha reached the moon in little time despite no character prior to Popo being faster than lightning, so its poor presentation there shouldn't apply to its restored stats.
It's worth noting the moon in the Saiyan Arc seems far larger than in the first two arcs, though even assuming Kami played a part in it, that only applies to his creative magic and not his offensive capabilities.

Aren't you the one who has said like a bazillion times that Moon feats are outliers?

The Roshi feat is as that clearly goes against future displays such as Daimao only being City level and no attack surpassing lightning speed until Popo. The Saiyan Arc feat, meanwhile, has no such contradictions.

 

[SIAD]

The thing is, Kamisama should be> Chaoz (Saiyan Fill) and the combined power of Tenshinhan + Krillin + Yamcha +! Chaoz is 1,507. Therefore, at least the first 3 must be stronger than Goku (BoZ), while Chaoz would be inferior to Kamisama. Practically Chaoz would be absolutely insignificant compared to the other 3 Humans.

That would only apply for the anime continuity, which is renowned for boosting the capabilities of characters whenever it suits the plot without explanation (eg. the numerous pieces of contradictive scaling in the anime's Boo Arc).

Furthermore, if Kamisama has the ability to restore the Moon, he would be restoring the weak Moon that Buff Roshi destroyed.

The feat in general was an outlier, particularly seeing as how the Kamehameha reached the moon in little time despite no character prior to Popo being faster than lightning, so its poor presentation there shouldn't apply to its restored stats.
It's worth noting the moon in the Saiyan Arc seems far larger than in the first two arcs, though even assuming Kami played a part in it, that only applies to his creative magic and not his offensive capabilities.

Aren't you the one who has said like a bazillion times that Moon feats are outliers?

The Roshi feat is as that clearly goes against future displays such as Daimao only being City level and no attack surpassing lightning speed until Popo. The Saiyan Arc feat, meanwhile, has no such contradictions.

So Chaoz (Fill Saiyan) is >>> Kamisama)?

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] Out of curiosity, how many times stronger are you Goku (TB23) than Kamisama?

And Kamisama how many times stronger than Mr. Popo do you have it?

Which gap is greater?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

So Chaoz (Fill Saiyan) is >>> Kamisama)?

That, or Anime Kami > Filler Chaozu >>> Manga Kami

Out of curiosity, how many times stronger are you Goku (TB23) than Kamisama?

Goku at his peak should be comparable to Piccolo's peak at that point (Small Country level) and is clearly on that level durability-wise. Meanwhile, the suppressed Piccolo who was overpowering Kami didn't display any feats above Island level, so the gap between them is that great, something supported by a heavily fatigued Piccolo still being confident in defeating Kami and however number of humans tried to stop him.

And Kamisama how many times stronger than Mr. Popo do you have it?

Popo is either City or Large City level, so the gap between Goku and Kami is the great one.

 

[SIAD]

And how many times stronger do you have Piccolo (TB23) over Kamisama according to your Power lists?

 

[SIAD]

So Chaoz (Fill Saiyan) is >>> Kamisama)?

That, or Anime Kami > Filler Chaozu >>> Manga Kami

Out of curiosity, how many times stronger are you Goku (TB23) than Kamisama?

Goku at his peak should be comparable to Piccolo's peak at that point (Small Country level) and is clearly on that level durability-wise. Meanwhile, the suppressed Piccolo who was overpowering Kami didn't display any feats above Island level, so the gap between them is that great, something supported by a heavily fatigued Piccolo still being confident in defeating Kami and however number of humans tried to stop him.

And Kamisama how many times stronger than Mr. Popo do you have it?

Popo is either City or Large City level, so the gap between Goku and Kami is the great one.

How powerful is Gohan Ozaru the first time?

I mean, what Level of Fight does Gohan reach at that time? It's when Piccolo destroys the Moon.

 

[SIAD]

I'm thinking you are right CC Goku and Piccolo in BoZ are very massively more powerful than in TB23 and after all Piccolo's feat of Destroying the Moon is never contradicted. My reasons for believing otherwise are as follows:

1.- Before Raditz's arrival, Goku throws a stone with all his might and impresses Krillin by commenting that Goku still retains the extraordinary power of 5 years ago and later when Raditz hits Goku, neither Krillin nor Master Roshi they comment on how strong Goku has become. Therefore the power of Goku (Weighted) should not be much higher than that of Goku (TB23).

2.- Nappa launches an attack with a Destruction level Country level according to Wiki VS and that attack practically scared Krillin. Krillin at this point could destroy Multiple Moons and it would be strange if he were so afraid of receiving a Country Level attack.

https://www.outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/13-general-obd-terms/160-comprehensive-energy-scale
Nappa's exploding wave: 373.8 teratons (Dragonball)
https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Exploding_Wave

3.- It is implied that Goku's Super Kamehameha (TB23) had a Fight Level of 910.

But maybe [mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] or [mention]Kenshi[/mention] can contradict those points.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

1.- Before Raditz's arrival, Goku throws a stone with all his might and impresses Krillin by commenting that Goku still retains the extraordinary power of 5 years ago and later when Raditz hits Goku, neither Krillin nor Master Roshi they comment on how strong Goku has become. Therefore the power of Goku (Weighted) should not be much higher than that of Goku (TB23).

Casually skimming a rock isn't an accurate gauging of Goku's full capabilities.

2.- Nappa launches an attack with a Destruction level Country level according to Wiki VS and that attack practically scared Krillin. Krillin at this point could destroy Multiple Moons and it would be strange if he were so afraid of receiving a Country Level attack.

That only shows Nappa's range for what was very much a casual attack wasn't that great and he'd still maintain some control of it, the same as Reacoom's Eraser Gun not destroying Namek despite being a Planet buster and the attack doing large environmental damage.

3.- It is implied that Goku's Super Kamehameha (TB23) had a Fight Level of 910.

Through a guidebook entry that goes against the feats displayed for it.

 

[SIAD]

1.- Before Raditz's arrival, Goku throws a stone with all his might and impresses Krillin by commenting that Goku still retains the extraordinary power of 5 years ago and later when Raditz hits Goku, neither Krillin nor Master Roshi they comment on how strong Goku has become. Therefore the power of Goku (Weighted) should not be much higher than that of Goku (TB23).

Casually skimming a rock isn't an accurate gauging of Goku's full capabilities.

2.- Nappa launches an attack with a Destruction level Country level according to Wiki VS and that attack practically scared Krillin. Krillin at this point could destroy Multiple Moons and it would be strange if he were so afraid of receiving a Country Level attack.

That only shows Nappa's range for what was very much a casual attack wasn't that great and he'd still maintain some control of it, the same as Reacoom's Eraser Gun not destroying Namek despite being a Planet buster and the attack doing large environmental damage.

3.- It is implied that Goku's Super Kamehameha (TB23) had a Fight Level of 910.

Through a guidebook entry that goes against the feats displayed for it.

So it's decided, Piccolo (Weighted / BoZ) >>> Piccolo (Explosive Final on TB23).

Kamisama and Mr. Popo in Movie 1 and in the Stuffed Saiyan Illusion, are far more powerful even than Piccolo's Final attack in TB23.

One last question, did Kamisama in Garlic Jr.'s Arc get a boost of rage when facing Garlic Jr. or just in that Stuffed Arc did Kamisama have a power in the hundreds of thousands?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

He would've gotten a Toei hax in the filler, or you could assume he trained with Popo if trying to make sense of Kami being able to do anything to guys above the 100k threshold. The latter assumption lines up somewhat well with Popo's Toei hax gains at later points of the Z anime and GT, at least.

 

[SIAD]

Kamisama (Arc Garlic Jr.) is > Yamcha (Arc Garlic Jr.)?