Humans post 3 year gap

[SSJ2]

Where do you have them?

 

[GSM123]

I don't think they could've progressed much if at all. Yamcha and Kuririn passed the opportunity to train with Goku saying they couldn't keep up, and even Gohan, who Goku saw as a secret weapon, could only arguably amount to rival Base Goku's level of power.

So what kind of special training they could've done? Unless you're taking DBS into account, they don't have bottomless power, in fact they are already beyond their limits after training with Kaio and Kuririn flat out having his dormant power trained. They don't have gravity chambers (With Tenshinhan even later admitting he wouldn't be able to keep up with Rosat conditions and filler Yamcha getting his ass crushed by 300G) and Tenshinhan is the only one with a sparring partner, one that I would be shocked to find out has ever reached 1,000 of PL.

So yeah, I don't think they should be much stronger than what they were when Trunks gave them that warning. Personally I have Yamcha and Tenshinhan somewhat above Ginyu and Kuririn far above that in the 300k mark or so; and that's being generous.

 

[SSJ2]

So why did only Chaozu stay behind then? When Tenshinhan announced that Chaozu couldn't keep up with the battle, Goku frankly told him that it was better off that way. Strangely nothing was said about the other 3 humans standing there. Krillin also claimed that he lacked confidence due to not being a Super Saiyan, so it leaves room for the humans to have gained a significant amount of power while still being irrelevant. There is also the mess of Gero's calculations that is another reason for the humans making decent gains.

Your assumptions about needing a special type of training is just that.. an assumption. Limits in Dragon Ball have been surpassed time and time again and serve as temporary plateaus rather than hard limits.

Chapter: 151, P2.1
Karin: “Unlike the Super Holy Water, the Super God Water isn’t just a trick; it’s not merely ordinary water. Rather, it’s magnificent water capable of drawing out all the power you’ve got hidden inside you…However, if you’ve already mastered all of your power through training, even if you drink the Super God Water you won’t get stronger at all…”

Goku had his power brought to its absolute limit and was quickly able to surpass this level.

Gohan, who Goku saw as a secret weapon, could only arguably amount to rival Base Goku's level of power.

If anything I fail to see why this should be any different than Krillin's situation. Gohan had his dormant power drawn out to its max by Saichoro no different than Krillin. Why was Gohan exclusively able to surpass his previous power by several times, but Krillin is hardly able to gain over 3 years? Your logic is warped. Sure, Gohan had sparring partners in Piccolo and Goku, but this shouldn't be seen as "special training" as you claim the humans would need to power up. So which is it? Are fighters able to gain power after reaching their limits or not? Gohan gained several million.

 

[Animelover5487]

I don't think they could've progressed much if at all. Yamcha and Kuririn passed the opportunity to train with Goku saying they couldn't keep up, and even Gohan, who Goku saw as a secret weapon, could only arguably amount to rival Base Goku's level of power.

So what kind of special training they could've done? Unless you're taking DBS into account, they don't have bottomless power, in fact they are already beyond their limits after training with Kaio and Kuririn flat out having his dormant power trained. They don't have gravity chambers (With Tenshinhan even later admitting he wouldn't be able to keep up with Rosat conditions and filler Yamcha getting his ass crushed by 300G) and Tenshinhan is the only one with a sparring partner, one that I would be shocked to find out has ever reached 1,000 of PL.

So yeah, I don't think they should be much stronger than what they were when Trunks gave them that warning. Personally I have Yamcha and Tenshinhan somewhat above Ginyu and Kuririn far above that in the 300k mark or so; and that's being generous.

I think you are stretching it saying Chaozu never made it past 1k. Chaozu was already over half of that going by guidebooks, Chaozu hardly gets any love but to say he didn't even double his battle power after Kaio training seems pretty bizarre, plus going off the anime he was already stronger than Guldo before Freeza's defeat on Namek and I seriously doubt Guldo would be part of the Ginyu Force if he was weaker than random mooks in Freeza's army, time powers or not.

 

[Pyro]

Going by the narrative, they're probably not far off from the Base Saiyans and suppressed Piccolo, honestly. Tenshinhan could dodge the same eye beams as Base Goku, who should still be stronger than his post-Yardrat power at that point, implying Tenshinhan (Android Saga) ~ Yardrat Goku if taken at face value. Shit, that would mean Krillin is even stronger, and Yamcha could likely be around post-zenkai Vegeta on Namek...

That still wouldn't make Gero's statement about overcoming SSJ Vegeta sensible, though. The humans would need to be around Kaio-ken Goku levels or the Super Saiyan boost would have to be like 2x for that statement to work.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

As Pyro said, we have Tenshinhan dodging Gero's laser in a similar timeframe to Base Galu, suggesting he ought to be on par with Sick Goku at least. Kuririn should be superior by default, though still below Base Goku at his full health. Yamcha is far more difficult to judge when he doesn't necessarily have anything to place him that high, though it would stand out as odd for him to be leagues below his peers and, for what it's worth, there is the anime suggesting he's still on par with Kuririn. I'd prefer to simplify things by giving him the same boost as the rest rather than making assumptions about differences in his training regime, which ends up with Yamcha being a fair bit above post-Zenkai Namek Base Goku imo. Finally, there's Chaozu, who's pretty much just pure assumptions. He was deemed to be at too much of a low level by Ten to bring to the battlefield, though some sources suggest Tenshinhan's worry about not being able to revive him without a trip to New Namek played a part rather than Chaozu being in general. I'd say it's at least fair to place him above Gurd like his filler self, seeing as how we have nothing better to go by.

 

[SSJ2]

That still wouldn't make Gero's statement about overcoming SSJ Vegeta sensible, though. The humans would need to be around Kaio-ken Goku levels or the Super Saiyan boost would have to be like 2x for that statement to work.

Do the calculations have to work mathematically though? It seemed like Gero had no true grasp of Vegeta's power even after seeing him defeat 19 post.

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P2.6
Context: after Vegeta asks No.20 why he says they have no chance of victory
No.20: “No matter how much you’re stronger than imagined…At that level, you absolutely cannot win against an android…”

And prior to both of these quotes, Gero had no understanding of Vegeta's power directly after he transformed. Gero was shocked by how strong SSJ Goku and Vegeta were, so I highly doubt his calculation were accurate. He continually low-balled Vegeta even after seeing him in action. Perhaps it's not a huge stretch that Gero thought he could defeat Vegeta by absorbing 2 suppressed Piccolos or 1 suppressed Piccolo + the humans. His quote about not being able to beat an android backs this, as he he knew he didn't have to be superior in power to win the fight.

I think his calculations can work fine with the humans around Base Saiyan level +/-.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Logically, his calculations should work mathematically when that seems to be the whole point of Vegeta's "Saiyans can't be measured in numbers" line and a scientist like Gero wouldn't really have any other metric to work from. The accuracy of his formula, however, is definitely suspect with the contradictions within it, especially compared to #16's radar. #17's radar didn't even seem to be that accurate when considering he initially saw #16 as inferior to himself. I'd probably say Gero's case has to do with the outdated energy-absorption types being inferior in all ways to the infinite energy models, with #17's case coming down to him not being purely artificial like #16.

 

[SSJ2]

I'm not saying his calculations didn't work mathematically in his interpretation, only that his interpretation was wrong. It doesn't have to add up properly on a battle power list if Gero assumed Vegeta wasn't miles above himself, which seemed to be the case.

 

[GSM123]

So why did only Chaozu stay behind then? When Tenshinhan announced that Chaozu couldn't keep up with the battle, Goku frankly told him that it was better off that way. Strangely nothing was said about the other 3 humans standing there. Krillin also claimed that he lacked confidence due to not being a Super Saiyan, so it leaves room for the humans to have gained a significant amount of power while still being irrelevant. There is also the mess of Gero's calculations that is another reason for the humans making decent gains.

I wasn't taking the power of the Shin Kikoho into account, just his normal power. That's the ace he had up his sleeve. If taking that power into account then I think he can at least cripple Piccolo with the power of the Kikoho, and that's not even taking into account the pushing properties. Yamcha may have had some trick as well since he was hyped to fight (He jumps right into the action and only admits he's fodder after facing #20), but his base power should likewise be fodder since even Kuririn was afraid from the get-go.

Special attacks aside, nobody cared about Piccolo's warning. Tenshinhan said he was going to show up nonetheless because he's a warrior, Piccolo was doubting his ability on his way to the Isle, and even Goku was inviting Yajirobe to join the fight. Everybody knew nobody but Goku would get to fight anyway.

Your assumptions about needing a special type of training is just that.. an assumption. Limits in Dragon Ball have been surpassed time and time again and serve as temporary plateaus rather than hard limits.

Sure, they are. But we can agree it's faster if you do something besides push ups at the side of your bed right? I mean you even brought up how Kaio said a handful of months with him is like a thousand years on earth on the other thread. You don't have to do the math to notice the humans wouldn't get multifold gains again in 3 years, specially I doubt Goku himself got many times stronger. Their gains should at least be lower than Goku's IMO.

If anything I fail to see why this should be any different than Krillin's situation. Gohan had his dormant power drawn out to its max by Saichoro no different than Krillin. Why was Gohan exclusively able to surpass his previous power by several times, but Krillin is hardly able to gain over 3 years? Your logic is warped. Sure, Gohan had sparring partners in Piccolo and Goku, but this shouldn't be seen as "special training" as you claim the humans would need to power up. So which is it? Are fighters able to gain power after reaching their limits or not? Gohan gained several million.

Goku actually begged for Chi-Chi to let him train Gohan, I don't see him doing that for Kuririn anywhere. Gohan also did the same stuff.

Gohan was still a kid and hadn't reached his peak yet. Both Guru and Karin's Choushinsui only unlocked what their underdeveloped bodies could handle, and it wouldn't be into their adulthood that they'd reach their real limits. Besides, they're Saiyans, even the limits I just mentioned got broken anyway. Saiyans are the protagonist warriors whole sole purpose is to fight. Humans, on the other hand... They could barely keep up with Goku when he was a kid without transformations.

I think you are stretching it saying Chaozu never made it past 1k. Chaozu was already over half of that going by guidebooks, Chaozu hardly gets any love but to say he didn't even double his battle power after Kaio training seems pretty bizarre, plus going off the anime he was already stronger than Guldo before Freeza's defeat on Namek and I seriously doubt Guldo would be part of the Ginyu Force if he was weaker than random mooks in Freeza's army, time powers or not.

Goku agreed with Tenshinhan about Chaozu being safer at home, but was genuinely happy when Yajirobe showed up. While I agree that one could still be revived by the Dragon Balls while the other couldn't, Goku acted like Yajirobe was a great adittion to the team, while Chaozu wasn't a big loss.

Gurdo could tear through Freeza's forces with his psychic powers alone. That's what makes him a great addition to the team, not his raw power.

 

[GSM123]

What if Gero's calcs make sense because they were in Kili? :dawae

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Goku actually begged for Chi-Chi to let him train Gohan, I don't see him doing that for Kuririn anywhere. Gohan also did the same stuff.

Gohan was still a kid and hadn't reached his peak yet. Both Guru and Karin's Choushinsui only unlocked what their underdeveloped bodies could handle, and it wouldn't be into their adulthood that they'd reach their real limits. Besides, they're Saiyans, even the limits I just mentioned got broken anyway. Saiyans are the protagonist warriors whole sole purpose is to fight. Humans, on the other hand... They could barely keep up with Goku when he was a kid without transformations.

Pretty big false equivalence there. Gohan had consistently shown himself to be capable of far surpassing everyone else in the room out of nowhere when angered and had presented enough potential to keep up with those far more experienced than him through similar training. Even in a scenario where Kuririn could be his equal at the time, training with Gohan would be a far more worthy investment.

Goku agreed with Tenshinhan about Chaozu being safer at home, but was genuinely happy when Yajirobe showed up. While I agree that one could still be revived by the Dragon Balls while the other couldn't, Goku acted like Yajirobe was a great adittion to the team, while Chaozu wasn't a big loss.

Goku's optimism seemed to just be hammering in how Yajirobe always came in clutch in dire situations even without contributing much to the battle, seeing as he was the most consistently reliable support character from his introduction until the end of the Saiyan Arc despite being nothing to the rest of the group in power. Goku being under the impression Yajirobe would join in would also mean he'd be assuming Yajirobe trained, which would be considered a potential help when considering this is a guy who could surpass Kami in 6 months despite barely participating in the training according to most sources.
Also, Goku probably didn't get a good chance to judge Chaozu's strength. He was dead by the time he arrived to face Nappa and Vegeta and he was likely at a suppressed level when walking around during the return from Yardrat.

 

[GSM123]

Pretty big false equivalence there. Gohan had consistently shown himself to be capable of far surpassing everyone else in the room out of nowhere when angered and had presented enough potential to keep up with those far more experienced than him through similar training. Even in a scenario where Kuririn could be his equal at the time, training with Gohan would be a far more worthy investment.

Gohan's superiority can't be consistent if it comes out of nowhere...

What you're refering to is just power that Gohan couldn't control yet, and people can estimate the ceiling of that power. Goku still saw Super Saiyan as a safer bet than Gohan's tantrums, so unless he was counting on Gohan becoming a SSJ these 3 years, his secret weapon is about 50x weaker than his full power.

 

[Hector]

I think using Gero's statement (Gohan + Krillin + Ten ~ Weighted Piccolo) and giving Weights Off Piccolo a 50x SSJ boost is a good way of gauging humans.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

I think the most likely answer is that Gero is senile.

 

[GSM123]

Hey, I just noticed that right or wrong, Gero's calculations do imply the humans are strong stuff nonetheless. One could arge he was highballing the humans since everybody was suppressed, but his brawl with Yamcha earlier would give him a strong hint of how strong Kuririn and Tenshinhan happen to be.