In Anime Dabura he says he is not afraid to face opponents who have 3,000 or 4,000 kiris?

[SIAD]

In Anime Dabura he says he is not afraid to face opponents who have 3,000 or 4,000 kiris, after the fight between Goku vs Yakon or is it a bad translation?

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Trash talk from Dabura. The only time he was right was about Boo but then it was too late.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The translation is right and I'd agree with it, given the reasoning I provided for Dabura > MSSJ Goku in the other thread. It's worth noting, however, the anime gives Dabura and Gohan buffs such as the former's meditation or the latter being suggested to have gained a Zenkai, plus the anime leans heavily towards Gohan being a SS2 in the fight with him telling Dabura he's going all-out.

 

[SIAD]

The translation is right and I'd agree with it, given the reasoning I provided for Dabura > MSSJ Goku in the other thread. It's worth noting, however, the anime gives Dabura and Gohan buffs such as the former's meditation or the latter being suggested to have gained a Zenkai, plus the anime leans heavily towards Gohan being a SS2 in the fight with him telling Dabura he's going all-out.

I was reading the manga, between the fight of Goku vs Yakon until Majin Boo killed Dabura. I will clarify the following points:

It is hard for me to think that Gohan has been SSJ2, since while Gohan fought against Dabura, Vegeta commented that he will be in charge of eliminating Dabura. In some chapters later, Goku believed that in a record time he would kill Majin Vegeta, until the latter transforms into SSJ2, leaving Goku surprised. Therefore Goku knew that Vegeta SSJ (Pre) >> Dabura (Vs Gohan).

Majin Vegeta SSJ2 was also shown to be tremendously superior than Dabura and Gohan against Majin Boo.

For while Goku and Majin Vegeta fought, Dabura told Babidi, that he only played with Gohan before and that he is just a child. Therefore Dabura would be at least >> Gohan.

Most likely, Dabura was far from using all his power against Gohan. The only thing that catches my attention is that Dabura says that he has found a warrior more powerful than him (Vegeta). My question is, did Dabura know that Majin Vegeta would be> Dabura? If so, in what form of SSJ? At least Dabura was unaware of SSJ2, since he didn't see when Goku transformed into SSJ2 in an instant. On the other hand, Dabura was not surprised by the power of Goku SSJ (Suppressed against Yakon).

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I was speaking about Anime Dabura and Gohan, since this is the version being discussed here.

As for your points about Dabura, that only shows Vegeta's SS2 self was stronger than he thought rather than him only thinking Vegeta had access to SSJ. If anything, Vegeta made it pretty clear to Goku he did have access to the form as it was very apparent Vegeta caught on to Goku having achieved the form and still declared he wanted to fight Goku.

Dabura stated that he found a more suitable opponent for them rather than a stronger one, suggesting he didn't think Vegeta would surpass him. There's also little reason to believe Goku was suppressed against Yakon when his aura was clearly flaring unlike in previous suppressions and he didn't try to bring out more power in his SSJ state and instead resorted to SS2. If anything, this and Dabura's assurance of Babidi's safety support him being above MSSJ Goku/Majin Vegeta, regardless of which form Gohan was using against him.

 

[SSJ2]

The translation is right and I'd agree with it, given the reasoning I provided for Dabura > MSSJ Goku in the other thread. It's worth noting, however, the anime gives Dabura and Gohan buffs such as the former's meditation or the latter being suggested to have gained a Zenkai, plus the anime leans heavily towards Gohan being a SS2 in the fight with him telling Dabura he's going all-out.

I think you could have a case for Gohan, but Goku not so much. Vegeta is frustrated by Gohan's inability to beat Dabra, implying that he personally would be able to. Goku was far ahead of pre-Majin Vegeta, so I don't see how he could be weaker than Dabra. Goku himself said SSJ Gohan wasn't completely losing.

 

[SIAD]

I was speaking about Anime Dabura and Gohan, since this is the version being discussed here.

As for your points about Dabura, that only shows Vegeta's SS2 self was stronger than he thought rather than him only thinking Vegeta had access to SSJ. If anything, Vegeta made it pretty clear to Goku he did have access to the form as it was very apparent Vegeta caught on to Goku having achieved the form and still declared he wanted to fight Goku.

Dabura stated that he found a more suitable opponent for them rather than a stronger one, suggesting he didn't think Vegeta would surpass him. There's also little reason to believe Goku was suppressed against Yakon when his aura was clearly flaring unlike in previous suppressions and he didn't try to bring out more power in his SSJ state and instead resorted to SS2. If anything, this and Dabura's assurance of Babidi's safety support him being above MSSJ Goku/Majin Vegeta, regardless of which form Gohan was using against him.

I agree with what you say, the only thing that differs is that if Goku knows that Majin Vegeta SSJ is equal to Goku SSJ. Logically, Goku would know that Goku SSJ2 is equal to Majin Vegeta SSJ2.

Goku also talked about defeating Majin Vegeta in record time. Sounds like it's a single hit. I don't think that Goku SSJ2 (Boo) defeats Vegeta SSJ2 (Pre Majin) with one blow.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I think you could have a case for Gohan, but Goku not so much. Vegeta is frustrated by Gohan's inability to beat Dabra, implying that he personally would be able to. Goku was far ahead of pre-Majin Vegeta, so I don't see how he could be weaker than Dabra. Goku himself said SSJ Gohan wasn't completely losing.

Vegeta has SS2 and stronger than Gohan in equal forms, so him defeating Dabura instantly is still something he can accomplish. Goku has been consistently shown in the Cell Arc to only have his aura blaring as he did against Yakon when he uses his full power in the form, so the art supports him being at full power, not to mention having no real in-universe rationale for being suppressed. This leads to one of two paths:

1. Gohan was a SS2 against Dabura despite what the lack of lightning suggests (of which a case could be made for, but that's a shitstorm for another thread )
2. Dabura wasn't going all-out against Gohan.

I agree with what you say, the only thing that differs is that if Goku knows that Majin Vegeta SSJ is equal to Goku SSJ. Logically, Goku would know that Goku SSJ2 is equal to Majin Vegeta SSJ2.

Goku also talked about defeating Majin Vegeta in record time. Sounds like it's a single hit. I don't think that Goku SSJ2 (Boo) defeats Vegeta SSJ2 (Pre Majin) with one blow.

Standing Ki is consistently shown to be far below a fighter's actual power even in Super Saiyan. The most blatant example would be Gero still believing #19 could handle SSJ Goku, as well as Trunks needing to test Goku in battle rather than just reading his Ki.

 

[SIAD]

I think you could have a case for Gohan, but Goku not so much. Vegeta is frustrated by Gohan's inability to beat Dabra, implying that he personally would be able to. Goku was far ahead of pre-Majin Vegeta, so I don't see how he could be weaker than Dabra. Goku himself said SSJ Gohan wasn't completely losing.

Vegeta has SS2 and stronger than Gohan in equal forms, so him defeating Dabura instantly is still something he can accomplish. Goku has been consistently shown in the Cell Arc to only have his aura blaring as he did against Yakon when he uses his full power in the form, so the art supports him being at full power, not to mention having no real in-universe rationale for being suppressed. This leads to one of two paths:

1. Gohan was a SS2 against Dabura despite what the lack of lightning suggests (of which a case could be made for, but that's a shitstorm for another thread )
2. Dabura wasn't going all-out against Gohan.

I agree with what you say, the only thing that differs is that if Goku knows that Majin Vegeta SSJ is equal to Goku SSJ. Logically, Goku would know that Goku SSJ2 is equal to Majin Vegeta SSJ2.

Goku also talked about defeating Majin Vegeta in record time. Sounds like it's a single hit. I don't think that Goku SSJ2 (Boo) defeats Vegeta SSJ2 (Pre Majin) with one blow.

Standing Ki is consistently shown to be far below a fighter's actual power even in Super Saiyan. The most blatant example would be Gero still believing #19 could handle SSJ Goku, as well as Trunks needing to test Goku in battle rather than just reading his Ki.

Which option are you going for?

I'm going with option 2. Dabura didn't really fight against Gohan, since it's a matter of seeing how after his fight, Dabura calls Gohan crap.

Majin Vegeta SSJ2 was tremendously superior to Dabura against Majin Boo. By logic Dabura fought with all his power against Majin Boo.

The string would be: Majin Vegeta SSJ2 >>>>> Dabura (FP) >>> Gohan SSJ.

I have a hard time seeing such a big difference between Majin Vegeta SSJ2 versus Teen Gohan SSJ.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Which option are you going for?

Depends on the continuity. For the anime, definitely Gohan being SS2 as he suggests so pretty heavily through his statements. Manga-wise, it's more difficult to gauge. Most of the art points to him being a SSJ, whereas most of the statements and general narrative conventions lean more towards him being a SS2, as would supplementary guidebook statements. It's something I'm on the fence about at the moment.

 

[GSM123]

Maybe discussing sparks and artwork for 66 pages with your Zeta friends could help you solve this dilemma, CC

 

[SIAD]

Which option are you going for?

Depends on the continuity. For the anime, definitely Gohan being SS2 as he suggests so pretty heavily through his statements. Manga-wise, it's more difficult to gauge. Most of the art points to him being a SSJ, whereas most of the statements and general narrative conventions lean more towards him being a SS2, as would supplementary guidebook statements. It's something I'm on the fence about at the moment.

I'm thinking that maybe Goku SSJ went with everything against Yakon, but being in a state of rest, maybe Goku SSJ exceeded 3,000 Kiris.

Another point that I got to thinking about is that maybe Goku and Majin Vegeta SSJ2 could be even stronger than we thought, since when Vegeta mentions that Goku surpassed the Gohan 7 years ago, Goku was in a state of rest.

Maybe Goku / Majin Vegeta SSJ2> Goku SSJ2 (Rest)> Kid Gohan SSJ2 (Enraged / Damaged)> Kid Gohan SSJ2.

What do you think of all this CC?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'm thinking that maybe Goku SSJ went with everything against Yakon, but being in a state of rest, maybe Goku SSJ exceeded 3,000 Kiris.
Another point that I got to thinking about is that maybe Goku and Majin Vegeta SSJ2 could be even stronger than we thought, since when Vegeta mentions that Goku surpassed the Gohan 7 years ago, Goku was in a state of rest.

There seems to be a definite difference between standing Ki and when simply standing around and standing Ki when prepared for a fight, the latter of which applies to both the Yakon and Majin Vegeta situation. Goku/Vegeta being far above Cell Game Gohan wouldn't really work when Pre-Majin Vegeta is likely below him based on his comment and Piccolo suggests the gap between them isn't anything huge.

 

[SIAD]

I'm thinking that maybe Goku SSJ went with everything against Yakon, but being in a state of rest, maybe Goku SSJ exceeded 3,000 Kiris.
Another point that I got to thinking about is that maybe Goku and Majin Vegeta SSJ2 could be even stronger than we thought, since when Vegeta mentions that Goku surpassed the Gohan 7 years ago, Goku was in a state of rest.

There seems to be a definite difference between standing Ki and when simply standing around and standing Ki when prepared for a fight, the latter of which applies to both the Yakon and Majin Vegeta situation. Goku/Vegeta being far above Cell Game Gohan wouldn't really work when Pre-Majin Vegeta is likely below him based on his comment and Piccolo suggests the gap between them isn't anything huge.

If the power of Goku SSJ (CG) were 25. What power level would you give to:

Perfect Cell, SPC, Kid Gohan SSJ2, Teen Gohan SSJ2, Dabura, Vegeta SSJ2 (Pre) and Goku SSJ2 (Boo)?

 

[SIAD]

I'm thinking that maybe Goku SSJ went with everything against Yakon, but being in a state of rest, maybe Goku SSJ exceeded 3,000 Kiris.
Another point that I got to thinking about is that maybe Goku and Majin Vegeta SSJ2 could be even stronger than we thought, since when Vegeta mentions that Goku surpassed the Gohan 7 years ago, Goku was in a state of rest.

There seems to be a definite difference between standing Ki and when simply standing around and standing Ki when prepared for a fight, the latter of which applies to both the Yakon and Majin Vegeta situation. Goku/Vegeta being far above Cell Game Gohan wouldn't really work when Pre-Majin Vegeta is likely below him based on his comment and Piccolo suggests the gap between them isn't anything huge.

I usually share the vast majority of your CC points. I have this:

Goku / Majin Vegeta SSJ2 >>>> Teen Gohan SSJ2 (Hypothetical) >> Perfect Cell (FP)> Dabura (FP)> Goku / Majin Vegeta SSJ >> Vegeta SSJ (Pre Majin) >> Teen Gohan SSJ> = Dabura ( Suppressed against Gohan).

The only thing that yes, Babidi managed to control Dabura, while Majin Vegeta SSJ did not succeed. Will Majin Vegeta mean SSJ> Dabura?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The only thing that yes, Babidi managed to control Dabura, while Majin Vegeta SSJ did not succeed. Will Majin Vegeta mean SSJ> Dabura?

It's more a testament to Vegeta's mental fortitude than his power, considering his strength of character and ambition is a defining trait of Vegeta's, not to mention the depths of his power (ie. SS2) already exceed Dabura's anyway.

As for the rest of what you said, I plan to create a thread on the matter, but it won't be for a long time as I plan to do so after rewatching the anime version of the fight (which I'm far from close to in my rewatch) and look into several supplementary sources to make it a more composite analysis of the topic.